The Secret Societies Debunking thread

[Fram]

Originally Posted by Outcast

if dont even know that such a thing is actually technicaly possible to do howcome you're accusing others of being woowoos just for making such claim. jeez... #-o

He didn't say that they were woo-woo's because they made that claim, just that there are woowoo's (let's say, moon hoax believers, or the royal family are reptiles believers, or Zeta-followers) who also make such a claim. Huge difference, and jeez yourself [-(

[collegeguy]

Originally Posted by Outcast

if dont even know that such a thing is actually technicaly possible to do howcome you're accusing others of being woowoos just for making such claim. jeez... #-o

Fram is right. I didn't say they were woowoos because of that, but because of their illuminati beliefs, which I am trying to debunk.

[Heid the Ba']

Originally Posted by collegeguy

Does anybody know of any info I could find to study about the Rothschild and the Rockefeller? I need to know some info to disprove their plans of New World Order. People believe international bankers like them, have plans to bring about a New World Order. Also any info related to the Federal Reserve. They claim it is privately owned and their stockholders create debt out of nothing to make money. Some even claim the Federal Reserve even runs the US, meaning the international bankers do.

More importantly, I have to find a way to prove that this is not true:

http://www.themoneymasters.com/how.htm

The site states:

The development of fractional reserve banking practices in the 17th century brought to a cunning sophistication the secret techniques initially used by goldsmiths fraudulently to accumulate wealth.

This is buying the use of depositors money at x% and lending it at x+2%, and paying your bills etc on the 2%. The cunning sophisticated technique employed by your local shopkeeper. I believe it is a form of capitalism.

With the formation of the privately-owned Bank of England in 1694, the yoke of economic slavery to a privately-owned "central" bank

Although initially privately owned it was nationalised in 1946, which would suggest it wasn't really enforcing its will on the politicians.

Quoting Carroll Quigley, a historian and sociologist "The apex of the system was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations"

The BIS was set up to control reparation payments after the Great War. It opened up its archives to the public in 1998. Either a great double bluff, or they aren't hiding anything. No part of this statement is true. I am also curious when this statement was made, Quigley died in 1977.

That yoke inevitably grows heavier with ever-compounding interest, and totals over $20 trillion of debt owed by the American people today ($80,000 per American) ultimately to these bankers

There is no link shown between debts to a limited company, and a central bank. I am deeply in debt to the Royal Bank of Scotland and RBS Group in various forms. RBS is not in debt to the Bank of England, therefore there is no conspiracy. Increasing debt is generally covered by increasing assets and increasing income, so does not grow heavier.

Ask for any link, any evidence whatsoever that this conspiracy exists, or even evidence that they understand how banking works, and I'll happily go through it.

[collegeguy]

Thanks for offering to help :wink: One of these link may be alittle big, but I would really be thankful if you could at least give some pointers in each:

http://www.nader.org/interest/021500.html

specially this one:

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/reserve.htm

[collegeguy]

Also check this:

Q: Who owns the stock of the Federal Reserve Banks?

A: The dynastic families of the ruling World Order, internationalists who are loyal to no race, religion, or nation. They are families such as the Rothschilds, the Warburgs, the Schiffs, the Rockefellers, the Harrimans, the Morgans and others known as the elite, or "the big rich".

Is there a website where I can check who "owns" the banks that own the federal stock?

[Gillianren]

you know, it's funny that the Rothschilds are on that list of people not loyal to anything but themselves (and, presumably, accumulating as much money as possible), since they're also used as proof of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy.

(side note: the Baron Rothschild of the 1860s said the North would win the Civil War because it had "the largest purse.")

[Outcast]

Originally Posted by collegeguy

Fram is right. I didn't say they were woowoos because of that, but because of their illuminati beliefs, which I am trying to debunk.

funny, i knew you would say that. my point was that if you could not understand a simple fact like the technical possibility of censoring the internet how on earth are you expecting to "debunk" the complexity of conspiracy theories. most of which are based on bits and pieces of information and also theories that go millenia into the past.
undestanding the roots of some of these ideas either to defend or debunk them implies a deep knowlledge on many fields, specialy of history. but here you are, a priori, casting woowoo accusations and claiming you want to "debunk" conspiracy theories.
oh well, good luck.

[Outcast]

A revolutionary American creation, the Great Seal is composed of
natural elements (eagle, olive branch, stars, cloud, light rays, eye)
and universal symbols (pyramid, arrows, shield).

http://www.greatseal.com/symbols/index.html

humm, how naive. most if not all of the symbols employed in those seals are masonic or have masonic connotations. most notably, the all seeing eye, the pyramid, the six pointed star, the thirteen stars and the other groups of thirteen. the number thirteen is very important in freemasonry for some obvious reasons (and others less obvious).

The nine signatories [of the American declaration of independence] who can now be established as proven Freemasons, and the ten who were possibly so, included such influential figures as Washington, Franklin and, of course, the president of the Congress, John Hancock. The army, moreover, remained almost entirely in Freemasonic hands...As we shall see, it is in the Constitution that the influence of Freemasonry is most discernible.

At last, on 25 May 1787, the Constitutional Convention opened in Philadelphia and commenced its efforts to devise the machinery of government for the new nation. The first voice to make itself heard in any significantly influential way was a characteristically Freemasonic one, that of Edmund Randolph.. Randolph...a member of a Williamsburg lodge, had become Washington's aide-de-camp. Subsequently he was to become Attorney-General, then governor of Virginia and Grand Master of Virginia's Grand Lodge. During Washington's presidency, he was to serve as the first Attorney-General of the United States, then the first Secretary of State.

There were ultimately five dominant and guiding spirits behind the Constitution - Washington, Franklin, Randolph, Jefferson and John Adams. Of these, the first three were active Freemasons, but men who took their Freemasonry extremely seriously - men who subscribed fervently to its ideals, whose entire orientation had been shaped and conditioned by it. And Adam's position, though he himself is not known to have been a Freemason was virtually identical to theirs. When he became president, moreover, he appointed a prominent Freemason, John Marshall, as first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

- The Temple & The Lodge

[Fram]

Originally Posted by Outcast

funny, i knew you would say that. my point was that if you could not understand a simple fact like the technical possibility of censoring the internet how on earth are you expecting to "debunk" the complexity of conspiracy theories. most of which are based on bits and pieces of information and also theories that go millenia into the past.
undestanding the roots of some of these ideas either to defend or debunk them implies a deep knowlledge on many fields, specialy of history. but here you are, a priori, casting woowoo accusations and claiming you want to "debunk" conspiracy theories.
oh well, good luck.

There's a difference between not knowing something (yet), and not understanding something.

[TriangleMan]

Originally Posted by collegeguy

Also check this:
Q: Who owns the stock of the Federal Reserve Banks?

Here is the website for the US Federal Reserve Bank. It would be a good place to start to learn about banking regulation in the US.

Bermuda's banking regulator, the Bermuda Monetary Authority was founded in 1969. I guess the Illuminati were late in arriving here.

[Heid the Ba']

Originally Posted by collegeguy

Also check this:

Q: Who owns the stock of the Federal Reserve Banks?

A: The dynastic families of the ruling World Order, internationalists who are loyal to no race, religion, or nation. They are families such as the Rothschilds, the Warburgs, the Schiffs, the Rockefellers, the Harrimans, the Morgans and others known as the elite, or "the big rich".

Is there a website where I can check who "owns" the banks that own the federal stock?

The term privately owned in these websites is deliberately misleading. It doesn't mean owned by a person or family, it means owned by people and organisations in the private sector. I doubt there is a website giving the information on all of them. As an example, simply because it is the one I know best, check the RBS website (RBS is the fifth largest bank in the world by capitalisation, top 10 by any measurement), it gives breakdowns of who owns the shares by region, and by type. Anyone with a holding larger than (I think) 5% has to be named in the annual report, I can't find those on the website. IIRC no individual owns that much in RBS, only other financial institutions.

There are a number of major problems with the websites you linked to:

1. US banks aren't big by world standards
2. The Fed is essentially government owned
3. Banks don't need to be corrupt to make money, they simply have to be well run.
4. some banks make cripplingly bad business decisions; Barings, most japanese banks, Natwest and others. As Morrolan pointed out, they can't run themselves, nevermind the world.

RBS is run by a guy called Fred Goodwin, he does want to take over the world but is doing it legally and obviously by tried and tested business methods. RBS shareholders (including me and Mrs B) are not ultra-rich conspirators but simple investors.

Of course this just means the RBS accounts are fakes and I'm in on the conspiracy. :roll:

[Gillianren]

Originally Posted by Outcast

humm, how naive. most if not all of the symbols employed in those seals are masonic or have masonic connotations. most notably, the all seeing eye, the pyramid, the six pointed star, the thirteen stars and the other groups of thirteen. the number thirteen is very important in freemasonry for some obvious reasons (and others less obvious).

gosh, and here I've spent the last 20-plus years thinking all those 13s represented the 13 original colonies . . . .

[collegeguy]

Check this out:

Free from the possibility, more and more each day, that any of the world’s 191 other sovereign nations will ever hinder the United States’ plans for humanitarian based global conquest.

The United States is in high gear, working to prevent the lesser cultures of the world from amassing power.
Massive U.S. spending on the war on terrorism pushed global military expenditure above $1 trillion in 2004, the sixth successive year the total has risen, a leading research institute said on Tuesday.

World military expenditure rose 5 percent to $1.04 trillion, still 6 percent below a Cold War peak in 1987-88, but up sharply since 1998, the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) said in its latest yearbook.
In recent news, the Sino Nippon clashes and the fall of the EU again simply underscore why the duty of all high level social engineering falls to the capable shoulders of the United States.

To the rest of the world, there is no need to fear this, for it is inevitable.
The person becomes the family
The family becomes the village
The village becomes the nation
The nation becomes the world, and the U.S. will show you the way.

With an ever expanding population placing increased demand on global resources (with the exceptions of SUV’s, which are exempt), insurgency has become a luxury that we, as a species, can no longer afford.
"World military spending...is again approaching its level at the height of the Cold War," the think tank said. "
"The major determinant of the world trend in military expenditure is the change in the United States."

U.S. military spending accounted for nearly half the global figure, rising 12 percent last year to $455 billion, the Swedish government-funded institute said.
That was more than the combined total of the 32 next most powerful nations, SIPRI said. The figure was set to rise still further to $502 billion in 2010.

U.S. spending "has increased rapidly during the period 2002-2004 as a result of massive budgetary allocations for the 'global war on terrorism', primarily for military operations in Afghanistan and Iraq," SIPRI said.

By February 2005 the total amount of extra spending requested for the 'global war on terrorism' since Sept. 11 2001 had reached $346 billion, the institute said.
"While U.S. military spending is still lower than during the Cold War in terms of its share of GDP, the sustainability of the current levels is being increasingly questioned," SIPRI said.

U.S. military spending increased to 3.9 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) last year from 3.0 percent in 1999, but remained well below its Cold War peak of more than 6 percent.

The top five countries by military spending -- the United States, Britain, France, Japan and China -- spent nearly two-thirds of the world total last year, according to the institute whose database contains officially reported military spending for 159 countries.

Growth in China's military spending slowed to 7 percent -- $35 billion -- while Russia's 2004 national defense budget increased almost 5 percent to $19 billion, SIPRI said.

In terms of the impact created by the spending gap, SIPRI believes that the large technology advantage enjoyed by the U.S. today will continue to widen at an increasing pace, and that by 2025, will likely result in the U.S. possessing the only cash of effective weapons found anywhere in the world.

Is there anyone left who doesn't see this as a better, more humanitarian path for civilization ?

Conversely, based on data for the past five years, Russia has overtaken the United States as the world's leading supplier of low and mid grade conventional weapons.
Russia, the United States, Britain, France and Germany accounted for 81 percent of all conventional weapons delivered in 2000-2004.
China and India were the two main recipients of conventional arms in 2004, the institute said.

Oh yes, the fact that the US is spending a whole lot of money in the war on terror means that they want to conquer the whole world. :roll:

[TriangleMan]

How dare that US military actually use its budget to research and develop better weaponry! They should be continuing in the time-honoured tradition of training recruits in how to use bayonets and muskets. :P

Yep, military spends money on weapon research - clear proof of the existance of Illuminati Overlords. :roll:

[philojones]

On a small scale, my uncle was a 32nd degree Mason and he knew 5 years in advance the route of a new highway through town (before it was officially decided). So he simply went and bought up the choice land at discount prices along with other members of the order. On a larger scale, washout general and war criminal Albert Pike is the only confederate with a statue in Wash D.C. He was the head of freemasonry in the U.S. (publicly, only in the South) and wrote "Morals & Dogma", the bible of the initiates. He didn't get the statue for war prowess....losers never get statues on the terra firma of the victor. It's obvious that freemasonry held sway over the greater good of the nation - Pike never went to prison after a battlefield debacle at Pea Ridge, AR., "The Indians, delighted in their capture of the "wagon guns" commence to scalp and mutilate the dead bodies of Union soldiers." (Note: Some publications whitewash Pike's actions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pike to scalping the dead.) This was a big deal at the time. Others went to prison for far less offenses. Andrew Johnson pardoned Pike. That's at least a national conspiracy with international overtones (Pike was well connected in Britain). Skepticism is good but don't put your head too far in the naivety guillotine.

Here is some more thought provoking evidence:

"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not
behind the scenes." --Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli of England, in 1844

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." - Woodrow Wilson

This requires you to do some homework:
Tatyana Koryagina

[philojones]

1.) If congress has the power to coin money and the issue thereof, just who the hell do we owe the national debt to? If we owe it to ourselves as some would have us believe, then why are we charging ourselves interest?

2.) Where the hell is all the silver that was pulled out of circulation in the past 50 years for cheaper coin materials?

[TriangleMan]

Originally Posted by philojones

1.) If congress has the power to coin money and the issue thereof, just who the hell do we owe the national debt to? If we owe it to ourselves as some would have us believe, then why are we charging ourselves interest?

The majority of debt owed by a developed nation such as the US is to the holders of government issued bonds. The US is one of the largest producers of government bonds, their AAA rating makes them safe investments. Even other governments invest in US bonds! Here is a website which has a lot of detail on the debt.

Governments can't just print money at will to cover their expenses, it will lead to hyperinflation and a major devaluation of the currency.

[XNBLVR1]

2.) Where the hell is all the silver that was pulled out of circulation in the past 50 years for cheaper coin materials?

I bet the US Government is using all that silver to pay off the Zetans for their excellent cover-up of Planet X.
I mean it probably costs a lot of money to keep that "Planet" dancing and swirling all over the solar system...

[collegeguy]

Philojones,I have a question for you. Do you believe in a secret evil power elite like the illuminati or only that greedy businessmen run America and the world? I ask you this because I have noticed there are these two groups who believe in cabals.

[philojones]

Originally Posted by collegeguy

Philojones,I have a question for you. Do you believe in a secret evil power elite like the illuminati or only that greedy businessmen run America and the world? I ask you this because I have noticed there are these two groups who believe in cabals.

The personages that I've dealt with in this area span a gap from atheistic money hungry to so-called Christian money hungry to crystal skull occultic money hungry. It depends on who you are as to whether or not these powers are evil. For example: If you want a Pan American Union with no borders and combined Social Security systems from Canuckland to Tierra Del Fuego, then it's not so very evil. I have a feeling that Central and South Americans are in love with the idea. They have everything to gain and we have everything to lose. Europe has had some countries vote to not join the European Union. Guess what? You won't get to vote on any of that here. It will go through congress and barely pass with a lot of Replicrat posturing.

There's definitely a lot of disinfo and misinfo out there. I read a doomsday article by Al Martin of almartinraw.com that claims Julian Robertson (hedgefund king known as "Never Wrong Robertson") said that he's moving to New Zealand because of the coming global economy catastrophe of biblical proportions. I viewed the CNBC video and all Robertson said was that he had been spending time in New Zealand and that he feels many people could lose their homes due to the speculative housing bubbles in certain areas of the country. Lots of money to be made by fearmongering. Lies are lies. However, facts are facts. A Someone obviously wants unchecked illegal immigration. It's not the average American in Cal where hospitals are going broke and schools went from near 1st to 45th and dropping and are having trouble keeping the doors open because there isn't enough money. "But they take jobs we won't & do it for cheaper." The net cost to the taxpayer is in the billions. There is NO savings anywhere. THEY ALL GET FREE HEALTHCARE! It's all a lie. So ask yourself, why? WHY!? Evidence of self serving cabals is everywhere. Don't take my word or anyone else's. Look around, do your own research and think for yourself.

[Gillianren]

um . . . wow.

about the health care thing: not paying for health care is, long term, a bigger drain on any economy, in that epidemics tend to start in poor communities and spread. trust me, you're much happier having even illegal immigrants being treated for virulent diseases.

[TriangleMan]

um . . . this took a decidedly odd turn . . . and getting political so I'm outta here.

[collegeguy]

I am sorry, guys. I didn't mean for this thread to get political

[philojones]

I am not an effective communicator except to the other wormhole thinkers that work for me. I'll just shut up.

[Herodotus]

Originally Posted by philojones

. On a larger scale, washout general and war criminal Albert Pike is the only confederate with a statue in Wash D.C. He was the head of freemasonry in the U.S. (publicly, only in the South) and wrote "Morals & Dogma", the bible of the initiates. He didn't get the statue for war prowess....losers never get statues on the terra firma of the victor. It's obvious that freemasonry held sway over the greater good of the nation - Pike never went to prison after a battlefield debacle at Pea Ridge, AR., "The Indians, delighted in their capture of the "wagon guns" commence to scalp and mutilate the dead bodies of Union soldiers." (Note: Some publications whitewash Pike's actions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pike to scalping the dead.) This was a big deal at the time. Others went to prison for far less offenses. Andrew Johnson pardoned Pike. That's at least a national conspiracy with international overtones (Pike was well connected in Britain). Skepticism is good but don't put your head too far in the naivety guillotine.

Here is some more thought provoking evidence:

"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not
behind the scenes." --Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli of England, in 1844

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." - Woodrow Wilson

This requires you to do some homework:
Tatyana Koryagina

As far as the statue to Albert Pike goes, it was put up by the Freemasons, not by the government as a tribute to some secret ruler of the country, which is what the implication is. Information on it can be found here:
http://www.kittytours.org/thatman2/s...asp?subject=93
It didn't take very long to find that information either.
And losers do get statues in the enemy land, a trip to the Stanislaus County Courthouse would show a statue to the Native-American leader Estanislaus whom the county is named after and fought against the Spanish and Mexico armies in this area.

[Floyd_the_astronomer]

Originally Posted by Herodotus

As far as the statue to Albert Pike goes, it was put up by the Freemasons, not by the government as a tribute to some secret ruler of the country, which is what the implication is. Information on it can be found here:
http://www.kittytours.org/thatman2/s...asp?subject=93
It didn't take very long to find that information either.
And losers do get statues in the enemy land, a trip to the Stanislaus County Courthouse would show a statue to the Native-American leader Estanislaus whom the county is named after and fought against the Spanish and Mexico armies in this area.

Politcally incorrect people don't get national statues. The pol. inc. state statues are being torn down. I don't see Robt. E Lees being forced upon us by the sons of the Confederacy. Washington liked Pike and supported the statue or it wouldn't be there. You can't fart in that town without them demanding to smell it. If you've worked there, then you know.... Why they like Pike? I dunno for sure but congress has it's share of Masons. Maybe it's as simple as the wisdom of statesman Iggy Pop In butt town you gotta get down

[Gillianren]

I'm cruising that site, and there's a statue to the "discoverer" of homeopathy in Washington, too. and Alexander Pushkin. and Taras Shevchenko, who I'd never even heard of until I read this site. St. Jerome the priest.

there's a plaque commemorating poor Mary Surratt, too. I'm not sure why she doesn't count as a Confederate, given that she was executed for allegedly participating in the conspiracy that assassinated Lincoln. still, maybe it's because she wasn't a soldier--and wasn't necessarily guilty.

it is true that statues in Washington, DC, are more closely controlled than in other places. still, the fact that there's a statue of a hippo doesn't mean the government is run by aquatic African mammals, either.

[Kesh]

Originally Posted by philojones

I am not an effective communicator except to the other wormhole thinkers that work for me. I'll just shut up.

It's always easier when you can just make statements without having to prove them. "Preaching to the choir," so to say.

I do think for myself, philo. You've provided nothing of substance to back up the existence of these "cabals."

[Disinfo Agent]

Originally Posted by philojones

It depends on who you are as to whether or not these powers are evil. For example: If you want a Pan American Union with no borders and combined Social Security systems from Canuckland to Tierra Del Fuego, then it's not so very evil. I have a feeling that Central and South Americans are in love with the idea. They have everything to gain and we have everything to lose. Europe has had some countries vote to not join the European Union. Guess what? You won't get to vote on any of that here. It will go through congress and barely pass with a lot of Replicrat posturing.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, exactly, but if you're concerned about the future policies of your country, isn't the answer to consider carefully who you vote for?

[Floyd_the_astronomer]

Originally Posted by philojones

On a small scale, my uncle was a 32nd degree Mason and he knew 5 years in advance the route of a new highway through town (before it was officially decided). So he simply went and bought up the choice land at discount prices along with other members of the order. On a larger scale, washout general and war criminal Albert Pike is the only confederate with a statue in Wash D.C. He was the head of freemasonry in the U.S. (publicly, only in the South) and wrote "Morals & Dogma", the bible of the initiates. He didn't get the statue for war prowess....losers never get statues on the terra firma of the victor. It's obvious that freemasonry held sway over the greater good of the nation - Pike never went to prison after a battlefield debacle at Pea Ridge, AR., "The Indians, delighted in their capture of the "wagon guns" commence to scalp and mutilate the dead bodies of Union soldiers." (Note: Some publications whitewash Pike's actions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pike to scalping the dead.) This was a big deal at the time. Others went to prison for far less offenses. Andrew Johnson pardoned Pike. That's at least a national conspiracy with international overtones (Pike was well connected in Britain). Skepticism is good but don't put your head too far in the naivety guillotine.

Here is some more thought provoking evidence:

"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not
behind the scenes." --Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli of England, in 1844

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." - Woodrow Wilson

This requires you to do some homework:
Tatyana Koryagina

The Tatyana quote looks like bunk to me. I want to see evidence that this really came from Pravda. Rense doesn't let the facts interfere with him.

The market will crash this fall Philo! I saw it in an issue of Baron's that's been confiscated by the authorities. You should buy gold....and I just so happen to sell it.

http://www.rense.com/general14/news.htm