The Secret Societies Debunking thread

[collegeguy]

I have agreed with some members in other forum to start a thread to debunk the claims some people are making related to secret societies (Skull and Bones, Illuminati, Bohemian Grove, Knight Templar, Freemasonry, etc). The reason is this: I have been requested to explain why I don't believe in it. They say they want to show me that I am wrong, but have promised to be open-minded to my arguments, (not that I trust them, but oh well). I would really appreciate if you could post any links that debunk or show info against these conspiracies. I am going to post also some links:

http://www.greatseal.com/mottoes/coeptis.html

http://www.skepdic.com/illuminati.html

[collegeguy]

A link with some reasonable points about "skull and bones", not decisive evidence but it is okay:

http://www.rotten.com/library/conspi...ull-and-bones/

[collegeguy]

Whoa, it looks like this thread was a bad idea.

[Archer17]

You might've been better off posting this in BABBling collegeguy. I'm not up on all that 'secret society' stuff but I think you're on the right track researching some skeptic sites. Just remember .. the burden of proof is on them, not you.

Good luck.

[A.DIM]

I agree; this topic is more appropriate in ATM or BABBling.

Collegeguy, secret societies and conspiracy are irrefutable facts of History.
My questions would be more aimed at what particular purpose they might('ve) serve(d) and how well whichever claims made about them hold up to scrutiny.

And to be objective, I think, it is necessary that you not limit yourself to "skeptical" sites in your quest to debunk secret socieites....


Francis Bacon Secret Societies.
I enjoyed studying Bacon in school and was very keen on his "secret society."

History and Prupose of the Freemasons and other Secret Societies.
Aside from the "lucifer" woo, I find this to be an interesting perspective with good references for further research.

Triad Society.
I think there's a "Triad" secret society in Japanese history as well?

Indian Secret Societies.
I never knew....


Any help?

[collegeguy]

Originally Posted by A.DIM

I agree; this topic is more appropriate in ATM or BABBling.

Collegeguy, secret societies and conspiracy are irrefutable facts of History.
My questions would be more aimed at what particular purpose they might('ve) serve(d) and how well whichever claims made about them hold up to scrutiny.

And to be objective, I think, it is necessary that you not limit yourself to "skeptical" sites in your quest to debunk secret socieites....


Francis Bacon Secret Societies.

I enjoyed studying Bacon in school and was very keen on his "secret society."

History and Prupose of the Freemasons and other Secret Societies.
Aside from the "lucifer" woo, I find this to be an interesting perspective with good references for further research.

Triad Society.
I think there's a "Triad" secret society in Japanese history as well?

Indian Secret Societies.
I never knew....


Any help?

Thanks for the links. I am checking both: sites that support and debunk certain secret societies. The reason why you saw me doing research specially in "skeptical" sites is that I am trying to prove some people in other forum that there are no conspirators controlling our government and trying to bring about a new world order. Thanks for the links, the freemasons one is evidently biased, but I will still compare with others. Thanks anyway.

[collegeguy]

Anybody has got any links that debunk the conspiracy theories of the Kennedy assasinations? I could really use those links.

[Kesh]

Originally Posted by A.DIM

Triad Society.
I think there's a "Triad" secret society in Japanese history as well?

The Triads are the Chinese equivalent of the Mafia. Basically, organized groups of thieves, extortionists and murderers. They were originally secret societies attempting to overthrow the government of the time, but have devolved into little more than organized crime.

[Kesh]

Originally Posted by collegeguy

Anybody has got any links that debunk the conspiracy theories of the Kennedy assasinations? I could really use those links.

Not links, but this is a good summary of the official version.

[A.DIM]

Although I'm no creationist, I find it interesting that they, too, make claims about secret societies, occultism, "new world orders" and such.

This article on Masonic Origins from biblebelievers.org shows a simple diagram that traces occultism, or secret societies, to the pantheism of mesopotamia and neighboring regions.

Now, I can't help but think all this, as much else, Religion itself included, points to the sumerian anunnaki - "those from heaven to earth came" - as being behind all this secret society stuff and a controlling one world government. :wink:

[Gillianren]

I recently found an excellent lone gunman site. disproves the "pristine" quality people say the bullet had, shows the actual trajectory of the "magic" bullet--everything. also worth reading is the link to the 100 factual errors in JFK.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[Kesh]

Originally Posted by A.DIM

Now, I can't help but think all this, as much else, Religion itself included, points to the sumerian anunnaki - "those from heaven to earth came" - as being behind all this secret society stuff and a controlling one world government. :wink:

Let's not get into that again! You've already had one thread!

[Maksutov]

Originally Posted by Kesh

Let's not get into that again! You've already had one thread!

Right. I get the impression A.DIM has a macro for his keyboard that, when any key is struck, inserts the term "Anunnaki" somewhere in the typing.

BTW, why is when I read that term I think of the Alan Sherman song Sarah Jackman, which was sung to the tune of Frère Jacques. I guess the "older" version would go something like this:

Anunnaki, Anunnaki,
How's by you?
How's by you?
How's your brother Yahweh?
And your sister Gaia?
She's nice too.
She's nice too.

(For a "round", second person starts singing first line when first person reaches "How's by you?", third person starts singing first line when first person reaches "How's your brother Yahweh?", fourth person starts singing first line when first person reaches "She's nice too." and so on until everyone runs out of breath.)

[A.DIM]

Hey, I know what you mean. I think it's a conspiracy or some "secret society's" attempt to expose me as a "woowoo."

And cute jingle; I like the mix of Sumerian, Hebrew, and Greek deities... oh so fitting. :wink:

Seriously though: Yes, I often bring up "those from heaven to earth came," but only because I continuously come across items, such as this topic, that point to mesopotamia as the place of origin or "genesis."
And what did the sumerians say? It was the Anunnaki.

[Fram]

It looks more like you come across a topic, then you look for a link with mesopotamia, and then of course you link that again to the annunaki. Of course, every time you trace things back to the beginnings of civilization and/or writing, mesopotamia is one of the regions that will appear. So it isn't to hard to plug your ideas (to put it mildly) on a regular basis.

[A.DIM]

Oh?

Well, the fact of the matter is that of the tens of thousands of cuneiform tablets unearthed in mesopotamia, only a few thousand have actually been translated. Granted, that's been enough for scholars to proclaim that it was in sumer where we find most of the "firsts" that comprise advanced civilization. Further understanding of the sumerians - who they were, where they came from, who their "anunnaki" were, etc. - is utterly fascinating to me. So many of their influences remain extant in today's world, whether in astronomy, religion, music, art, literature or what have you, and IMHO, you must know where you've been to know where you're going.

[Archer17]

Originally Posted by A.DIM

Oh?

Well, the fact of the matter is that of the tens of thousands of cuneiform tablets unearthed in mesopotamia, only a few thousand have actually been translated. Granted, that's been enough for scholars to proclaim that it was in sumer where we find most of the "firsts" that comprise advanced civilization. Further understanding of the sumerians - who they were, where they came from, who their "anunnaki" were, etc. - is utterly fascinating to me. So many of their influences remain extant in today's world, whether in astronomy, religion, music, art, literature or what have you, and IMHO, you must know where you've been to know where you're going.

And your point?

[Fram]

Originally Posted by A.DIM

Oh?

Well, the fact of the matter is that of the tens of thousands of cuneiform tablets unearthed in mesopotamia, only a few thousand have actually been translated. Granted, that's been enough for scholars to proclaim that it was in sumer where we find most of the "firsts" that comprise advanced civilization. Further understanding of the sumerians - who they were, where they came from, who their "anunnaki" were, etc. - is utterly fascinating to me. So many of their influences remain extant in today's world, whether in astronomy, religion, music, art, literature or what have you, and IMHO, you must know where you've been to know where you're going.

Not all scholars agree on those 'firsts', though, as e.g. Egypt has a lot of claims to make as well, and Israel (first city?), and probably other regions and countries as well.

[a7304757]

Originally Posted by A.DIM

Oh?

Well, the fact of the matter is that of the tens of thousands of cuneiform tablets unearthed in mesopotamia, only a few thousand have actually been translated. Granted, that's been enough for scholars to proclaim that it was in sumer where we find most of the "firsts" that comprise advanced civilization. Further understanding of the sumerians - who they were, where they came from, who their "anunnaki" were, etc. - is utterly fascinating to me. So many of their influences remain extant in today's world, whether in astronomy, religion, music, art, literature or what have you, and IMHO, you must know where you've been to know where you're going.

Adim,
http://www.zeitreiseheldenberg.at/
(klick through Kreisgräben popups)
is a 2005 main stream exhibition which gives some clues to pre sumerian origins which could be interesting to you
highlights are are large numbers of wooden circles (Kreisgräben, stonehenges) along the Donube river
erected acc. to present dating practises around 4800–4500 BC,
while some of the gates are oriented crosslike i.g. four gates of the the sun: longest, shortes and equal day/night
another circle has the gates according to stars: descent of antares, ascent of deneb, descent of rigel of orion
and ascent of pleiades( as has been investigated sofar by astronomers)
One can see from the pottery ware at the site it is similar to later sumerian. It is striking that baking ovens for grains like spelt were uncovered there, which proves that bread was imported to mid east. Sofar it was believed that the oldest bread baking ovens known were found in cappadocia (turkey) from where they were imported into sumeria. It is one more hint that pre sumerians entered from central europe.

[Disinfo Agent]

Hey, a7 is back! It's been a while...

[collegeguy]

Does anybody know of any info I could find to study about the Rothschild and the Rockefeller? I need to know some info to disprove their plans of New World Order. People believe international bankers like them, have plans to bring about a New World Order. Also any info related to the Federal Reserve. They claim it is privately owned and their stockholders create debt out of nothing to make money. Some even claim the Federal Reserve even runs the US, meaning the international bankers do.

More importantly, I have to find a way to prove that this is not true:

http://www.themoneymasters.com/how.htm

[a7304757]

Originally Posted by Disinfo Agent

Hey, a7 is back! It's been a while...

thx for the welcome, but I am afraid nothing much new to say ops:
Recalling the conversations we had years ago about a mesopotamian cylinder seal showing sun, moon and other unidentified objects I found that the socalled skydisk, Nebra disk of about 1600 BC
see picture at
http://www.neara.org/MiscReports/12-08a-03.htm
http://www.astro.uni-bonn.de/~dfischer/mirror/243.html
and many other links

is well documented now by various scholarly researchers ( even a BBC documentary was made) and resembles those early mesopotamian seals, so to assume a common source. It is regarded by some as a bible of early astronomy and seems to be the outcome of observations gathered from hundreds of wooden or stone circles unearthed sofar.

collegeguy, I know of a forum
where you can get different views on the topics you requested.
I think its in the General Chatter section
http://www.ickedownload.com/Forum/

[Gillianren]

for reasons on which I'm not entirely clear, the Kennedy site I gave you earlier also features a link to a site debunking some National Reserve woo-woo. (I think it's debunking the belief that they killed Kennedy, but only because I'm relatively sure that someone, somewhere, believes that anyone you can name killed Kennedy.)

[Disinfo Agent]

There were two threads about the Nebra sky disk, a7304757. See here.

[a7304757]

Originally Posted by Disinfo Agent

There were two threads about the Nebra sky disk, a7304757. See here.

Thx again for the links, gazing at the Nebra sky disk of say 1600 to 700 BC one could assume an influence of even older mesopotamian astronomy. But since elements of the picture have been discovered recently at say 4600 BC in the area, it could be possible that mesopotamian astronomy was influenced by this.
I found this when reading
http://www.zeitreiseheldenberg.at/
quote:
The positioning of the gate areas has provided the basis for theories that have aimed to demonstrate that the circular ditch systems were places of astronomical observation or temples to the sun. One striking feature of systems with two entrances is their consistent alignment along an east-west axis. Although any orientation based on the heavens would be susceptible to considerable variation, an observed tendency towards positioning in certain directions may be indicative that these early rural cultures observed a sun calendar. In many cases, orientation followed not only the main heavenly axes, but also the sunrise and sunset points at the summer and winter solstices and certain other times of the year. In other instances, positioning may follow astronomical lines (i.e. linked to star patterns such as the vivid star cluster of the Pleiades or particularly bright stars in the constellation of Orion).
End of quote.

It also states that these systems were centers of conspiracies, perhaps dark places, this is indicated by the many sacrifical activities that have been unearthed within the ditches.

[Morrolan]

Originally Posted by collegeguy

Does anybody know of any info I could find to study about the Rothschild and the Rockefeller? I need to know some info to disprove their plans of New World Order. People believe international bankers like them, have plans to bring about a New World Order. Also any info related to the Federal Reserve. They claim it is privately owned and their stockholders create debt out of nothing to make money. Some even claim the Federal Reserve even runs the US, meaning the international bankers do.

More importantly, I have to find a way to prove that this is not true:

http://www.themoneymasters.com/how.htm

well, as a international banker with 25 years of experience, all i can say is that that claim is highly unlikely, if only for the totally incompetent way in which most banks are and have been managed... bankers only look mystical to some because the commodity they (mis)manage is (other people's) money, but in all reality they're nothing more mystical or exciting than a chartered accountant. 8-[

[pteranodon]

Originally Posted by A.DIM

History and Prupose of the Freemasons and other Secret Societies.
Aside from the "lucifer" woo, I find this to be an interesting perspective with good references for further research.

#-o

Nonsense! My fiancé is a freemason and he is not into anything but their own rituals and local community help. I can assure you they do not have to worship Satan or Babylon or anything said to be demonic to join Freemasonry. The only religious belief required is to believe in God, not the christian God, but with a more neutral idea.

[collegeguy]

I am embarrased to say it, but my knowledge of how the internet runs is little. Could someone tell me if it is possible for the government to shut down or censor the internet? Some woo-woos say the government will do this and I want to know to what extent that can be done.

[Fram]

Censoring the internet happens now in a number of countries (China, some arab countries, I presume North Korea, ...), and the internet gets watched (for terrorist activities, child porn, ...) routinely in most countries. Shutting down the internet inside a country can be done, normally, but I don't think it would be very easy in the USA. And it would disrupt the economy on a very large scale.

[Outcast]

Originally Posted by collegeguy

I am embarrased to say it, but my knowledge of how the internet runs is little. Could someone tell me if it is possible for the government to shut down or censor the internet? Some woo-woos say the government will do this and I want to know to what extent that can be done.

if dont even know that such a thing is actually technicaly possible to do howcome you're accusing others of being woowoos just for making such claim. jeez... #-o