Here is the rectified close up of Armstrong's reflection in Aildrin's visor. From left to right we have the LM, Armstrong, the Flag and the Solar Wind Collector. The one thing that has always puzzled me is the lack of any shadow on Armstrong's right leg. If you look you can see that his right foot is planted in the middle of the shadow from one of the lander's legs. Although the right boot appears to have a shadow cast on it, the rest of the leg appears to be in in full view of the Sun.



So is this some kind of optical or photographic illusion? Could the distorting convex surface of the visor have had anything to do with it? I have tried looking at the 16mm camera footage to see if there are any clues there, but unfortunately Armstrong is just out of view when he takes this particular picture.

Maybe the shadow just happens to end when it gets to Armstrong's shin?

Maybe it's because Lunar Lander's have knees. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner, that I love London town...(altogether now!).

Looks like the knees join 3 pieces. The visor photo looks like 2 pieces. Also, if that is the knee, why don't we see a shadow of the brace that is attached lower down?

I don't know why we don't see one, but I do. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Look at the photo again. Notice how Armstrong's shadow is to the right of the shadow of the strut. The two shadows diverge very low on his leg. He is standing with only his foot in shadow. The rest of his leg is in sunlight.

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kaptain K on 2002-08-12 00:54 ]</font>

I agree with the Kaptain. The shadow of the landing leg takes a right turn at the point where Armstrong's right foot is standing. So only the foot is in the shadow.

But it's really hard to get detail from this distorted reflection.

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...And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. --Sir Bedevere

I guess the misunderstanding comes from the fact, that the shadow isn't from something that is perpendicular to the surface, but with some inclination. As the shadow goes over the ground and reaches the leg, one would expect that it also would run up the leg. But actually, the shadow is crossing the place where Neil's leg is.

Harald

Looks like this whole issue got resolved before I even got to read the thread, but I've just got to throw something in here, so I'll just say this.

That's Armstrong's left leg that's in shadow. Don't forget we're looking at a reflection . . .

SeanF
The Pickiest Nit-Picker Who Ever Picked a Nit

Except that the image has been 'flipped' to give the scene as seen by Buzz. I can't work out which leg it is now. My head hurts.

Not absolutely sure, but I think it doesn't cross--it stops and goes back.

<a name="20020812.8:55"> page 20020812.8:55 aka Shadow2
On 2002-08-12 12:49, GrapesOfWrath wrote: To:
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/vi...#20020812.8:45
Albireo?
anyway while attempting to look that up
in some old Astronomy & S&T mags
i happened upon some A11 photos
OF COURSE {right away} i started looking at "SHADOWS"
[yes, yes i still look for Earth Shine Shadows in old Mags]
anyway the one i found was under the ARM? Feb`87p83 Astonomy

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Here is an enhanced version of the visor reflection. Note how that the shadow of the strut does not turn to the left when it reaches Armstrong's right foot, but actually continues in a straight line behind him, until it reaches the shadow of the descent stage (just above and to the right of Neil's left leg).



Notice how Armstrong's shadow is to the right of the shadow of the strut. The two shadows diverge very low on his leg. He is standing with only his foot in shadow. The rest of his leg is in sunlight.



You're most probably right, but it still seems strange that it's only Neil's foot in shadow and not the bottom half of his lower leg as well (the leg seems to be too far into the shadow for it to be receiving direct sunlight). However, it is impossible to determine exactly at what point on his leg the two shadows diverge to, so I would conclude that what we are seeing is likely some kind of optical illusion and not an anomaly.



That's Armstrong's left leg that's in shadow. Don't forget we're looking at a reflection...



Without any doubt it is Neil's right leg in (or out) of the shadow. John's right when he says that the image has been horizontally flipped in order to show the scene as seen by Aldrin when Armstrong snapped the 'Classic' photo. Try comparing this view to pictures of Buzz putting up the SWC and you'll see what I mean.

In looking at it some more, I think it's pretty likely an optical illusion caused by the distortion of the reflection as well as parallax.

You can see almost all of Armstrong's leg's shadow behind him, right next to the lander's leg's shadow. Anyplace where the lander shadow is on Armstrong's leg would have both legs' shadows overlapped on the ground behind.

I think if we could see an undistorted image here, there'd be a pretty significant angle to the shadow. In this image it looks like the shadow runs almost straight into Armstrong. I'm willing to bet it was actually running at a significant angle from Armstrong's left in front of him to his right behind him (in other words, when viewing the image, the shadow runs from your right in the foreground to your left in the background).

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SeanF

"Ask to understand, but don't challenge unless you have the knowledge."--NEOWatcher

The contents of this post are ©2009 by SeanF and may not be copied or retransmitted in any form without the express written consent of SeanF

I betcha I was wrong, after seeing the enhanced version of the scene. The shadow of the leg does seem to run up farther.
The legs are at a significant angle. If you stood on the shadow of a vertical pole, the shadow would fall across your face. But you can stand on the shadow of a pole that is at a significant angle, and the shadow will not be on your leg. The plane of the leg must be more perpendicular to the path of sunlight--which it is, otherwise the shadow it would fall across the shadow of the body of the lander.

There are photogrammetric rectification techniques for locating the probable location of the object producing the shadow at Armstrong's foot, but I don't feel comfortable applying them here without knowing whether the distortion of the visor and the anti-distortion that produced this picture will affect them.

Assuming that Armstrong was standing straight, his legs would be slightly apart. This means his left leg (as we see it in this photo) would be running slightly left to right as we move from his foot to his waist. The leg of the LM was at an angle, as seen in the pics of Buzz climbing down the ladder, and in this pic would be leaning to the left. This must be the right hand leg of the LM (left when viewed from the front of the LM), as it is casting a shadow on the floor. Besides, we know where Buzz was standing when this photo was taken, by the right leg.


This leg would cause a shadow that ran to the left, whereas Neils leg would cast a shadow that ran to the right. Only his foot needs to be in the shadow of the LM leg. That's what we see in this photo.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: johnwitts on 2002-08-12 18:46 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: johnwitts on 2002-08-12 18:47 ]</font>

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This composite picture illustrates the explanation given by John in his last post. The astronaut's right leg goes from bottom-left to top-right, while the landing strut goes from bottom-right to top-left. Imagine that this is a zero-phase view with the sun directly behind us; only the astronaut's right boot is hidden behind the strut, so therefore only the boot will be in shadow.



[fixed spelling]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ian R on 2002-08-12 20:43 ]</font>