This is taken out of context, and does not accurately reflect Rumsfeld's view on why the US should be taking a more active role in ensuring a strong military present in space.

Rumsfeld has said on numerous occasions that both Russia and China already have military space projects underway and that India is not that far behind. It is his clear belief that the US lead in space is eroding, and he feels that the next war, should one ever occur, will be won by the country (or countries) that can dominate the planet from the "high-ground".

from http://www.envirovideo.com/karlpressfreedom.html

Further, Rumsfeld is not interested in weapons looking away from the planet, the assumed direction of any invasion from ET, but rather for the capacity to hit the planet from anywhere needed.

from http://www.fas.org/spp/military/doco...ac/visbook.pdf

Rumsfeld's objections to the course of the space program in 1963 were not based on a fable, they were based on his very real fear that the USSR would be in a position to strike the US at any time, with no fear of reciprocation against space-based missle/military platforms. This is a theme that he has stuck to since those days.

How you come to read some nefarious "watch out for ET" plot in his heartfelt view that the US must dominate space militarally is beyond me.

__________________
All civilizations become either spacefaring or extinct.~ Carl Sagan ~

Humanity must rise above the Earth, to the top of the atmosphere and beyond, for only then will we fully understand the world in which we live.~Socrates, 500 B.C. ~

Let every man judge according to his own standards, by what he has himself read, not by what others tell him. ~Albert Einstein~

"How you come to read some nefarious "watch out for ET" plot in his heartfelt view that the US must dominate space militarally is beyond me"

"Watch for an ET threat" was not the initial reason given by the testimony to weaponize space.

Politician are never completley honest about their agenda or hidden agenda.
I have a hard time believing you people don't know that, unless there is a motivation to debunk UFO's. Hmmmmm?

Hynek, Dr. J. Allen told about his involvement with the Robertson Panel:

"I was called in Thursday to that room. The members were seated around a table, a conference table like this one. I sat in the back until it was my turn to speak. During the meeting there were two films of UFO sightings that were of great interest to everyone at the time. One was shot by a Navy officer in Utah and another shot in Great Falls, Montana. The Utah film was to result in over a thousand man-hours of analyzing the phenomena captured on the film. Oddly enough, there wasn't any movie screen, so these films were projected right on the wall."

"After one-thousand hours of analysis on the Utah film....the Navy photograph interpretation labs....concluded that what we saw was not birds, balloons, aircraft, or reflections, but that these were 'self-luminous' unidentified objects. In spite of this conclusion, the panel rejected the Navy's findings and decided that it must have been birds."

Oh please. The motive to debunk UFOs is to get people to think rationally - If they learn the UFO they saw was just some aircraft, perhaps they'll think a little more skeptically the next time they see a UFO

Oh and by the way, UFO doesn't stand for Unidentified Flying Object - It stands for Uncommonly Foolish Observer :wink:

__________________
here we go, the world is spinning
when it stops, it's just beginning

sun comes up, we laugh and we cry
sun goes down, and then we all die

Touched by his noodly appendage

Well, I completely disagree with this. Rational people can see something that they can't readily identify. I know this because I've seen a UFO...Unidentified Flying Object. Now, I did not immediately think I was looking at a "Denoublian Star Ship" or anything ET related for that matter. To do so would have been jumping to an outrageous conclusion. The problem arises when one takes the leap that UFO=Alien Space Ship.

Now, all of this about Rumsfeld and Von Braun, ET and Star Wars defense can either be looked at in a reasonable manner or through the looking glass of conspiracy theory. Occam's razor verses Wooccam's razor...you'll certainly get a different spin on just about anything depending upon how you reason things out.

The development of good, solid critical thinking skills is one of the most important things a person can strive for, that's why de-bunking is important. When you get down to it, if something can be easily de-bunked then it very likely was nonsense to begin with!

__________________
An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get all sorts of weird bugs!

Duane wrote:
Source:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=280

It simply states Donald Rumsfled had a strong agenda in weaponizing space, even back then over the Apollo missions.

Richard C. Hogland two or three weeks ago on Coast To Coast AM when talking about the current problems with NASA and the Space Shuttle mentioned Wernher von Braun's name. He said something like when he was working at NASA he saw Wernher von Braun with tears in his eyes because they rejected his proposal for a more advanced propulsion system over the current troubled Space Shuttle design.

It's like your dealing with a dumbed down, sloth space agency in the name of UFO secrecy.
A waste of tax payer money like the V-22 Osprey.

http://www.philipcoppens.com/nicap_keyhoe.jpg

Source: http://www.philipcoppens.com/nicap.html

"In 1961, when Keyhoe was in charge of the organisation, NICAP was the largest UFO organisation around. It was in September that Betty & Barney Hill believed they had been abducted"

"A few days afterwards, Keyhoe was lunching with Robert Hohman and C.D. Jackson, a former advisor to President Dwight Eisenhower. Jackson advised on Cold War strategy and also co-operated with Henry Luce for Time-Life. Hohman and Jackson stated that they were working on an article discussing the alleged extraterrestrial contacts.."

"Furthermore, when they introduce themselves to the Hills, the two gentlemen give another reason: they are doing research into the origins of those ships, in accordance with existing scientific theories, specifically those proposed by Hermann Oberth, the father of the V2 rockets.."

When decades later the Belgian government held a press conference on the UFO phenomenon, American newspapers did not report as the story was not carried.

I like this exchange! I shall remember both of these acronyms. =D> =D> =D>

__________________
Microsoft is over if you want it.

The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

Source: http://www.disclosureproject.org/ddt.htm

"By using Mr. Podesta, President Clinton's Chief of Staff, and other notables (including, alas, some Disclosure Project witnesses) this DDT operation is attempting to jump start Von Braun's long-ago predicted hoaxed alien threat. For what could be more terrifying than linking real ET and UFO evidence and serious military and government testimony, with a xenophobic-titled science fiction product like 'Taken' "

ABC who put the debunker UFO special together with alien abductions at the end (ironically) is coming out with a series called "Invasion."

I've also heard about a "V" series remake that is in the works.

Remember Ronald Reagan's famous "threat from space" speech?
Weaponizing space was on the agenda.

Finally, some actual evidence. TV shows. :^o

__________________
Some try to tell me, thoughts they cannot defend,... - Moody Blues.

Neptune- The original Dark Matter.

The author feels that this technique of deliberately lying will actually make it easier for you to learn the ideas. - Donald Knuth

Source: http://www.philipcoppens.com/nicap.html

The government’s attitude towards the UFO phenomenon was largely due to the conclusions of the Robertson Panel, which in 1953 concluded that the two largest UFO groups, the Aerial Phenomena Research Organisation (APRO) and Civilian Saucer Intelligence, had to be monitored. Why? “Because of the potentially huge influence they could exercise on the ideas of the public, if UFO sightings became common place.”
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Source: http://ufologie.net/htm/ruppeltwhoiswho.htm

"After one-thousand hours of analysis on the Utah film....the Navy photograph interpretation labs....concluded that what we saw was not birds, balloons, aircraft, or reflections, but that these were 'self-luminous' unidentified objects." -- Dr. J. Allen Hynek told about his involvement with the Robertson Panel.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: http://ncas.sawco.com/ufosymposium/intro.html

Mr. Roush: I think it is only appropriate that Dr. Hynek be introduced by our colleague, Mr. Rumsfeld.

Mr. Rumsfeld.

Mr. Rumsfeld: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is a pleasure to welcome all the members of this distinguished panel, and particularly to welcome Dr. Allen Hynek, who is a son of Illinois, and presently serves in the Department of Astronomy and Director of the Lindheimer Astronomical Research Center. Dr. Hynek is a member of a number of scientific societies, and has served in the Government service as well as in the academic community. As his Congressman I am delighted he has been invited to appear on this panel, and we certainly look forward to his comments.

Personally, I find the generalization that all politicians are lying is as silly as the rest of this. Yes, there are dishonest politicians, but that does not mean that everyone of them lies. I suspect that many, if not most are honest, even ones that I disagree with on their political positions. To say that a politician said "A" and therefore Not A is true is not proof of anything.

So topsecretresearch, if a politician came out saying that UFOs are from another planet and the US has been making space weapons from their technology, would you think they were lying and were covering their true agenda?

__________________
At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

No I don't have to draw my conclusions. I insist on staying inconclusive based on these insufficient... "coincidences".

__________________
I have many of 'em mental powers

I've drawn conclusions: Namely, this is pure bunk, and these "coincidences" are about as useful as the coincidence of reduced numbers of pirates versus global temperature.

I suppose I could go into some of the cold war history about the conflict between the U.S. and U.S.S.R., and the reasons for their competition in space, but I think it would be lost on the only one here that believes in these "coincidences" so I see no reason to bother.

*brrr* This thread reminds me far too much of GLP.

Ok, I've drawn my conclusions. Yes, everything is explained via The Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory.

Snip:

__________________
An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get all sorts of weird bugs!

I thought Cters had said that the "threat from space" was an illuminati plot to unite us under a one-world government. I guess the purpose of the conspiracies change depending on who you talk to. :-k

__________________
"jiu-jitsu is perfect it's people who makes mistakes"

In a debunking mood? Check this site: http://www.sherdog.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=54

You will always find conspiracies there. Open an account and expose them. But careful, they may call you a 'government sheep".

Now you're catching on! :wink:

__________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes."
Mark Twain

Avatar courtesy of Bunny.

Oh, very good. From that article:

Finally, it all makes sense!

gee, I dunno how to say this, guys, but I'm convinced. no, really. all it took was all that bold print in those completely random excerpts to do it.

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

"It is my thesis that flying saucers are real and
that they are space ships from another solar system.
I think that they possibly are manned by intelligent
observers who are members of a race that may have
been investigating our earth for centuries."

Professor Herman Oberth, German rocket expert
considered one of the three fathers of the space age.
In 1955, Dr. Werner von Braun invited him to the U.S.
where he worked on rockets with the Army Ballistic
Missile Agency and later NASA.

From: The American Weekly, October 24, 1954.

http://smirkingchimp.com/viewtopic.p...c=9123&forum=7

This is an article that appeared in a magazine called `Flying
Saucers' that was written in 1967 by Maj. Donald E. Keyhoe.

SAUCERS SECRET : ANTIGRAVITY

One leading scientist who is convinced that UFO's are
spaceships using gravity control is Dr. Hermann Oberth. Doctor
Oberth, a recognized authority, was co-designer of the V-2 rocket
and later a U.S. special consultant at Huntsville, Alabama, one of
the installations where important antigravity research is now
underway.

"With ordinary propulsion," Doctor Oberth told me in 1961,
"such violent accelerations and maneuvers would endanger the ship.
Also, the force would crush any creatures aboard against the rear
or sides of the machine. But with an artificial gravity field the force applies simultaneously to the passengers and the spaceship.
Even in swift changes of speed and direction, the ship is not
strained and the passengers feel nothing."

Today, Doctor Oberth is willing to go further. He is now of
the opinion "that energy, inertia and gravitational fields are
only aspects of one and the same thing" and that it will prove
impossible to separate them from each other. What he has in mind,
he says, is "not yet known fields of force" which can be used to
accelerate material objects in a way similar to the force of
gravity.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/ufoantig.htm

Interesting, Hermann Oberth's name appears in this list of books about UFO's:

ARCHIVES FOR UFO RESEARCH
Books & documents in the AFU collection by Ufocode S (science, scientists & philosophy of science)

Scientists, individuals / Reeken, Dieter von: Hermann Oberth und die UFO-Forschung. (GEP Sonderheft 15).

http://www.afu.info/booksbycodeS.htm

Dr Schilling, Professor Oberth And UFOs

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/.../m11-005.shtml

Dr Schilling gained his PhD in Applied Physics and was recruited
by Major General Walter Dornberger to work on the V2 project at
Peenemunde with Dr von Braun. He was one of the 126 scientists
that were resettled in the US at Fort Bliss, near El Paso, Texas
after the war.[2] This team later moved to Huntsville, Alabama
(Marshall Space Flight Centre) and launched the USA into space
in 1958. Martin later left the Huntsville Team, to work for the
"Raytheon Company" and rose to become vice-president for
research, retiring in 1977.[3]

To cut a long story short, I thought you might find this story
told to me in 1981 by one of Martin's, 'Raytheon' colleagues,
the story went this way:


A staff member was passing judgment against the brilliant rocket
pioneer, Professor Hermann Oberth (1894-1989) mocking him as
being "nuts" for his belief that craft from other worlds
existed. The exchange occurred after Oberth had stated in the
press that UFOs in his opinion were bona fide.[4]

Martin is said to have slowly turned and glared at the chap, and
from the friends account, in a clear and direct retort, was
heard to have said:

"Oberth, mad! You don't know what he knows or
what we know, he is not mistaken! Oberth never
said anything that was irrational and theoretically
wrong, why don't you listen". [5]

And that was it.

Now that's an endorsement if I ever heard one.

NASA Veteran Releases Bombshell Claims On UFOs:

Did Rocketeer Wernher Von Braun See Aliens At Roswell?

"Colonel Charles A. Lindbergh was interested in rocketry and was influential in obtaining financing for Dr. Goddard."

Donald E. Keyhoe was once Charles A. Lindbergh's aid.

"Eighteen years after his successful demonstration at Auburn, Goddard's pioneering achievements came to life in the German V-2 ballistic missile"

http://www.charleslindbergh.com/rocket/

"Any thinking person who examines the mass of evidence can reach but one conclusion: the Saucers are real." -- Dr. Robert Goddard

This headline would lead you to think of the famous UFO crash in 1947, but this would have routinely appeared in the local Roswell paper from 1932 to 1942. Dr. Robert H. Goddard, recognized as the most important figure in American rocket history, had moved his rocket launching facilities to the small town of Roswell, New Mexico, which was known for just about nothing then...

http://www.skywatch-international.or...ndberg_UFO.htm

The plural of anecdote is not data.

topsecretresearch, if you'd care to discuss this subject matter, I'd really encourage you to do so. Simply posting multiple, random snippets is little different from spamming the forum, and a good way to get this thread locked.

Not only is this all anecdotal but I can't help noticing that most of the people who are being quoted are dead. Not much chance of corroborating their statements from the great beyond!

__________________
An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get all sorts of weird bugs!

hi, I hate to keep this nebulous gibberish going, but some things are STILL UNANSWERED: -WHAT is this TRUTH that THEY are hiding from US?...- WHY are THEY hiding IT?...-HOW can WE benefit from knowing that TRUTH?...as was already posted, lets suppose what topsecrect says is true, then PLEASE topsecret, tell us in a plain, simple, straightforward way that WE can understand, WHAT must WE do with the VITAL secret TRUTH that ET's are visiting earth? Make it of value to US, WHY should IT concern US? Guide US, don't just say 'be vigilant' - do you mean as we drive our car, or bungee jump- be vigilant that politicians hide or manipulate truth-tell us something we don't know. Be vigilant about what and why!? Say something of concrete value that WE obviously need...be SPECIFIC for uninformed dupes such as me. If you must warn us, tell us what your are warning of and why. ALL conspiracy advocates do as you, talk circular and use each other as reference and crutches. Look at the recent MARS IS GOING TO BE AS BIG AS THE FULL MOON internet story- lots of quotes, lots of facts,(all out of context) some versions had hardly a handfull of sentences that were pure invention! So, spare us the links, just tell us THEIR AGENDA, THEIR MOTIVE, THEIR ULTIMATE GOAL. Be VERY specific, get to the point, I'm a Texan...thanks

I'm with Wolverine. A bunch of quotes concerning the improvable does not make a case. Anyway, I think topsecretreaserch should read Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan. That should set him straight.

Okay I'll discuss.

N C More wrote:
"Not only is this all anecdotal but I can't help noticing that most of the people who are being quoted are dead."

No, too many quotes by him linked to a publication source.
It's not good debunking to claim something isn't evidence just because you don't agree with it or a person is dead.



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