Excellent article. And when it came time for him to direct people to info about the hoax, what site do you think he linked to? Well, it certainly wasn't written by 'BS'. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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...And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. --Sir Bedevere

I think most of you are missing the point here, and it's "body language".

It was wrong for Bart to ambush and accuse Buzz. Noone likes being bullied or browbeaten or being tricked. So I am not condoning the way he did what he did at all.

Having said that however, how should a mature man react, an innocent man who has been wrongly accused of something?

[sarcasm]Why, punch out the man to shut him up of course![/sacarsm]

Why not face his accuser head on and say "Let's sit down and discuss this man to man. I've got nothing to hide, let's keep that camera rolling. Ask me anything. Show me the anomalies and I'll explain them"

But he doesn't. Neither do any of the astronauts. And that is the problem. If they have nothing to hide, why do they keep running away? Why do many of them shut themselves off from the world?

You see, the problem I have is with Buzz's body language. His overreaction speaks volumes. Does it not occur to some of you that the reason that Buzz acted violently is because the accusations hit a raw nerve? He could not face his accuser because he really is hiding something. He only wants to live in a world where everyone agrees that he did what he says he did and anything else he can't stand.

Ask yourself, if you were falsely accused of something, would you hit them to shut them up or would you try to have an honest, open discussion with them?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Rusty Lander on 2002-09-14 11:11 ]</font>

Maybe if someone was stalking you and calling you a coward and a liar (not to mention a murderer) you would think differently. Buzz is human and will sometimes act on emotion rather than reason, and I bet most people would have done the same thing under those circumstances.

If the astronauts sit down and talk with people like Bart they give him credibility which he does not deserve. His theories can easily be debunked by anyone who took math or science in highschool, it doesn't require an astronaut.

Bart isn't interested in what the astronauts, or anyone else, have to say anyway. If they deny the moon landings were faked Bart says they're lying... nothing the astronauts could say would convince him otherwise. So it is a waste of the astronauts time to even acknowledge Bart's existence.

I think someone should use Bart's tactics against him to see how he likes it. "Hey Bart! Why don't you swear on the Bible that you've never been arrested for drugs or alcohol abuse?"


Kel

Couldn't help but notice that the page this Fox News editorial links to on the subject of HBs is the BA's debunking of the very same network's moon hoax program. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

I suggest you are missing the point here. Ol' Bart has had several run in's with Dr. Aldren. This one was typical of all of them with the exception of the punch. There is a point at which enough is too much.

If you think it out, you don't get to spend 10 days in a sardine can with two other guys if you are a hot headed PITA. So you have to figure that Buzz is pretty level headed by nature. If some one is bothersome enough to prevoke Buzz into throwing a punch....well...said person must be a PITA on a cosmic scale.
Further, what do you think Bart will do with whatever tape he gets? No matter what Dr. Aldren says, it will be twisted to fit Sibrel's agenda. A lose/lose situation for Aldren.

I could go on about this but prefer to be happy. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img]

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It's just one of those damn things of which there are many few. -- Dan Blocker

"Sitting down and talking man to man" with a stalker isn't likely to work, even if the victim of stalking were dumb enough to try it.

Sibrel has a history of stalking, accosting, threatening, and generally beleaguering the Apollo astronauts. Just because no legal charges for stalking have *yet* been filed does not make his victims less victimized. He’s already been arrested for trespassing in relation to his stalking of Neil Armstrong. With any luck, he’ll be arrested for this most recent deliberately staged incident with Buzz.

Sibrel has made himself far more than just a "pesky conspiracy theorist." He has lied, he has run one con after another, set up astronauts for abusive "interviews," and he has clearly not drawn the line at physical aggression. This is not the first time he has turned his aggression on Buzz Aldrin.

To me, Aldrin’s body language is that of a man who, at the moment, feels absolutely hunted. It was Sibrel who provoked the confrontation. It was Sibrel who tried to block the exit so Aldrin and his daughter could not simply leave. It was Sibrel who tried to shove a camera crew into Aldrin’s face so this deliberately staged incident could be filmed. Aldrin tried to walk away. Sibrel followed him, aggressively jabbing him with the Bible, shouting insult and invective.

Aldrin knew by then that he had been lured to a staged event under false pretenses. He had been lied to and conned – again, Sibrel’s often-used tools. When he discovered the fraud, he didn’t hang around to see what would develop – he just took his daughter’s arm and headed for the exit. Sibrel did everything in his power to block their way. Aldrin repeatedly told Sibrel to leave him alone, to back off. He had told the camera crew to turn off their cameras. He had asked that someone call the police. He and his daughter could be seen holding on to one another and trying to get past the aggressive onslaught. Only when this aggressive, abusive stalker had him up against a wall and was hulking over him bellowing abuse in his face did Aldrin defend himself physically.

As for body language, study what happened next. Aldrin was not the one who stood gloating and smirking. He grabbed his daughter and hustled her out of range. It was Sibrel who stood smirking into the camera and asking, "Did you get that?"

Sibrel has often claimed to be a journalist, even an "investigative journalist." In either claim, he isn’t. As far as I have been able to discover, Sibrel’s only claim to journalism was a part-time job running camera at the NBC affiliate in Nashville. He was fired from that job following the trespassing incident involving Armstrong.

Sibrel is no victim, here. He’s a self-serving con man who bilks people out of money so they can see his badly edited pistache of public domain footage.

He’s also a con man who has repeatedly tried to use physical intimidation against men twice his age. Aldrin had clearly just had enough of the abuse.

Just having nothing to hide is no protection against repeated, deliberate, aggressive, and very determined stalking.

Why is it I don't believe that this is BS's first physical confrontation.

Maybe it's because he looks like he was one of those loud mouthed, obnoxious, twerps that got beat up in school every day.

For the past 30 years the astronauts have sat down and talked to people about the landings. Even Neil Armstrong seems to be by nature a very private individual (even before the moon landings) has taken part in countless interviews etc. The thing is they are willing to sit down and talk to people who are willing to listen.(emphasis on the last part)

Sorry I do not agree with using violence but Buzz always had the reputation for doing things hands on (i.e. the modifications he create to make 'space walking' more efficent and much more practical) .....

Well at 72 he can, in my opinion remaun hands on when the fool or nut if you prefer pushes him to no other response.

As for Neil....well any man who almost claimed the Moon for the Great State of Texas...I'd say Sibrel got off lucky with Buzz.

I dunno... as you say, I don't think "sitting down and talking with" Sibrel would have done any good. The person with the video editing tools has the power, and if that person is an unscrupulous huckster like Sibrel, well, any interview is going to be twisted to fit his agenda.

But I STILL think that the best reaction would have been to keep a cool head and ignore him. Walk away, go in your hotel room, whatever... let the cops handle Sibrel's tresspassing and harassing butt. But by hitting him, Aldrin gave him just a smidgen of high ground.

Mind you, I think Sibrel deserved it. But I think the best course of action would have been to not hit him, as irresistable as that may have been. Socking someone almost never has the effect you want it to, unless you're in a movie.

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PC load letter? What the @%$# does that mean?

Check this out for a really great laugh.

http://www.bartsibrel.com/

[img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img]
(My father's a Texan; I can appreciate this. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] )

About whether or not Buzz should have hit Bart or not, well, rationally - probably not. But, when you consider the circumstances... I mean, when tensions rise and tempers flare, rationality does have a tendancy to fly out the window.

I'm more of a realist than an idealist. It seems to me that Bart had it coming to him. And I wonder how many of the other astronauts that Bart has hounded were thinking either, "It's about time!" or "Wish I'd done that." (You do know the real definition of stress, don't you?)

I know this may sound weird, but when my brother was in the army, he'd recount on how when two guys were in conflict with each other, the two of them going out into the field and punching each other's lights out brought faster resolution than anything else. I don't get it, but maybe those of you of the "male species" can. I don't condone violence, but in a case like this I do not believe I am in a place to condemn it either. Real life bites, and walking the line of "perfection" is not easy. And who is it that decides what "perfection" is anyway?

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"As I lay beneath the Southern Cross, the stars tell more than I could" . . . David Meece

No, but I did notice that "Bart Winfield Sibrel" is an anagram of "(deleted on legal advice) wild (deleted on legal advice) tribble".

Blast! Better try something less offensive. Here's one that recognises his self-appointed journalistic credentials: "Wires in flat dribble."

Bottom line: Sibrel's made himself a complete laughing-stock even among those who couldn't possibly care less about the moon landings, but he's too obsessed to realise it.

"Mister Sibrel, how DARE you strike Mister Aldrin on the fist with the full force of your teeth."


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: synykl on 2002-09-16 21:31 ]</font>

In a fully rational world, everyone would be able to sit down and rationally talk over their differences.

But this isn't the planet Vulcan. Unfortunately, there are a lot of irrational, emotional, and just downright looney people out there. These guys don't respond to logic or reason. Truth is, many people only respond to physical dominance and control.

Let's face it, some people just need a good a** whuppin'.

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...And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. --Sir Bedevere

David Hall wrote:
On 2002-09-13 22:30, ToSeek wrote:

Quote:

I think someone suggested this already, but this columnist takes it and runs with it: [a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,63045,00.html"]The Astronaut Assault Hoax[/a]

Excellent article. And when it came time for him to direct people to info about the hoax, what site do you think he linked to? Well, it certainly wasn't written by 'BS'.

Another funny thing is that the guy in the Fox News article, pointing out that the HBers "...have been amply debunked", links to BA's article debunking the Fox "Hoax" special!

As for the writer's promise, well, I have only met Dr. Aldrin once (book signing), but I hereby pledge my allegiance to the Buy Buzz a Beer Society (tm) in the event of a future encounter.

Good intentions notwithstanding, remember Buzz is a recovering alcoholic. You might have to buy him a diet Coke instead.

Ah, sure, colleen, 'tis an Irish manly thing, so 'tis. Sure, and anyone who's seen the great Irish actor John Wayne in The Quiet Man could tell yez the same!

Now, of course, you'd be after knowin' that to do the thing up right, both of yer men must be after it th'gither. When one of them, like that Bart Sibrel character (sure, an' he must be English, I'm thinkin'!), refuses to do his part, well, then, there's not much to be gained from it all. But in that case, yez have the fun of punching up an Englishman, and that's worth it entirely!

The (founder of the Make Sibrel an Englishman Then Pummel the Lights Out of Him For Ireland's Sake Association) Curtmudgeon

As a distant descendant of Swiss ancestors...I'll gladly hold your coat!

Silas

Folks, I understand the topic of this thread and all, but I'd prefer it if we didn't discuss how to beat up Mr. Sibrel on this forum, okay?

True.
But can we at least pop some popcorn if the legal system manages to do this for us?

Even if Bart gets kicked around in court, even if he's convicted of assault on Mr. Aldrin, it won't make any difference. For the people who pay, they'll get a video of Mr. Aldrin clocking Bart. And of course Bart's smirk of "victory".
Mr. Aldrin could, of course, sue to keep that clip from Bart's latest "production". (Almost forgot to put that in quotes)
So what will we have? A bunch of people who were totally flummoxed by 8th grade earth science who still believe Bart will waste their money. Is this really worth Mr. Aldrin's time or money?

Abject apologies, Boss. I certainly hope that anyone reading my previous post reads it as a bit of humour and not a serious proposal to give Mr. Sibrel more of the same.

But for anyone who might so misconstrue me, <font color=red>I WAS JOKING!</font>

The (okay, so we'll disband the Association after dinner) Curtmudgeon

I'm a firm believer that stupidity is its own punishment - so let the suckers buy Bart's video and wallow in their delusions. I bet Buzz will just do what he tried to do when Sibrel accosted him and walk away.

Beer, Coke, fruit juice, a steak dinner; I'd buy Buzz whatever strikes his fancy. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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...And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. --Sir Bedevere

Apologies. It was meant as hyperbole, of course. (Which is one more plug for "Bad Logic" as a sub-thread...)

Mr. Sibrel needs to be "beaten up" in words and in ideas, the very matter and meaning of the internet.

It is worth considering that, of all the people I know, more than half are only via the internet and email, and are beyond my ability to "beat up" in reality. You, as an internet celebrity, might have a larger proportion of "virtual" friends to "flesh" ones.

Eerie, ain't it?

Silas

I know I have very little more to add here. We all have our opinions, and mine's no better than anyone else's. But I just can't help thinking that hitting someone just seems wierd to me. Think about it. It's one thing to say ya, right on, all that stuff. But the idea of punching someone you don't like or who's p....d you off, it's wierd. Oh well, maybe it's 'cause my parents never spanked us kids, I don't know. Well, I just felt like rambling again after reading all these other thoughts.

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~~ ><>><> ~~ ><,,> ><,,> ...`;=;p d;=;' /\/\^/\ ^^ ^/\/\_
Democracy Now! - The lost art of investigative news reporting.

There's a nice review on amazon.com right now on B.S.'s movie.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...562714-9845659

Enjoy

From the Amazon page:

Great Buy

Buy this DVD with Capricorn One DVD today!

**LOL**

From the Amazon page:

# Encoding: Region 1 (US and Canada only)

The first time I can see anything good in this region code crap.

Harald

[/quote]

Beer, Coke, fruit juice, a steak dinner; I'd buy Buzz whatever strikes his fancy. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[/quote]

Could you just imagine buying him a steak dinner and then sitting down and talking with him for a bit? I know some posters here have had the priviledge to meet some astronauts. But I was three years old when Dr. Aldrin walked on the Moon. These people are my original heroes. What they accomplished actually shaped in some way who I am.

The thought of actually listening to them try to explain to me their experiences actually makes me shaky with anticipation. On the other hand, I got a chance to see the video this morning for the first time. It made me sick to my stomach. I don't advocate violence either. It usually means you've run out of words or ideas. But I could feel myself wanting to dive into the screen and....lets just say pull that guy off Buzz. I get shaky just thinking about it. Can you imagine how Buzz must have felt?

This might be slightly Off Topic, but if you check out

http://www.collectspace.com/sighting...-location.html

or just

http://www.collectspace.com/

they have some nice listings of astronaut speaking engagements. When you here these guys speak, you know its not a hoax.