Slime,

I've tried to stay out of this, so I'll offer you a simple bit of advice. Many of us on this board are scientists, engineers, photo folks and other similar technical professions. Simply giving us an unnamed source or some person's website will never convince us and most people of your point of view.

What will work is evidence from several sources. For example, why don't you provide us with several photographs of the same site taken by different space missions. If there are cities on the moon they should show up on Lunar orbiter, Apollo, Clemintine and possibly Galileo photographs. That would do a lot to convince at least me of lunar cities. One piece of spurious data will never do it for me.

One thing I'd like to add to JRKeller's statement is that most scientists I've met are not frightened by the thought of alien beings and would love for them to exist. As I said, I got interested in space exploration precisely because I believe there is intelligent life out there. If a bona fide alien spacecraft landed on the lawn of the White House I think you'd see scientists come to blows over the privilege of interviewing the pilots.

But we want the real deal. We don't want charlatans or inconclusive evidence. We don't want blurry photographs of spots in the sky. It's not the farfetchedness of the conclusion that scares scientists. It's the fact that the conclusion is being drawn on flimsy, unreliable evidence. People like Maurice Chatelain really irritate us because they promise what we want, but fail to deliver. The way to tick off a scientist is not to dispute his findings, but to feed him a load of unreliable data that erroneously leads him to those findings.

Good Grief, how many conspiracy/crank theories do we have in this single paragraph???

Stephen Hawking claims alien inspiration? Evidence please? Did he give them credit when he accepted his Nobel?

I suppose every great inventor/scientist got alien inspiration. I've heard this about Di Vinci before, and it made me mad. Can't there be geniuses without aliens? Can't we build the dang pyramids, stonehenge, crystler building on our damn own using our own brains, are we that stupid??? Slime, you surely have a low opinion of your own species.

And what the conspiracists do to poor Tesla... [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

__________________
"Ignorance has caused more calamity than malignity" H.G. Wells

"Getting lost is part of exploring." Uniqua in "Backyardigans-Heart of the Jungle"

"Trying to wrap my head around creationist astronomy is like trying to ride a unicycle around a Moebius strip: it’s off-balance, physically impossible, full of one-sided arguments, and in the end you don’t go anywhere." Phil Plait

Stephen Hawking claims alien inspiration? Evidence please?

He didn't mention that when I met him at a reception for the planetarium where I volunteer.

But since Prof. Hawking has a well-developed sense of humor, perhaps Slime has seen a remark of his taken out of context. It would be nice to see exactly where and when he is alleged to have made this statement.

I heard it on a European (Dutch/Norwegian satellite programme a couple of years ago.
I believe it was primarily about UFOs.
Without reeling through many, many hours of videotape only to find I didnt record it (if I did, I think is was probably recorded over), I'd rather talk to you for hours. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

You spoke to him? That must have been a pretty complicated arrangement. Next time you have his ear, ask him whether it is true.
Is he online for discussion?

Rift:

A crank can be tomorrows genius and vice versa.

Build me a pyramid then. Try to manage to get a 600 tonne stone transported a mile.
If you really dont believe in conspiracies, I suggest you try to look up the word for its meaning.
Believe it or not, it is in the dictionary.
Somewhere between clot and cretin. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Slime (Silky Smooth) on 2002-10-13 18:09 ]</font>

Maurice Chatelain really irritate us because they promise what we want, but fail to deliver.

Perhaps we shouldnt jump to premature conclusions about Mr Chatelain's character.
His claims could be 100% bona fide!
Maybe his position within NASA was bolstered by someone else.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Slime (Silky Smooth) on 2002-10-13 18:05 ]</font>

I didnt think my Tesla expose would have surprised too many here as I did post the link at Apollo Hoax to the full film "The life of Nikola Tesla" when it was streamable from http://www.alienzoo.com
Orson Welles was at his grumpy best as the rich Electric Company boss.

Oops! I mentioned Orson Welles. All the Americans will be running for the hills now. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Also Hawking holds a very open mind on reincarnation. Especially his own.
How many questions did you get to ask of Stephen, Jay?
Couldnt have been that many.

He only asked one question. It took two days to get a reply.

Question. Who are you?
Answer: B*gger Off.

For Rif. The autobiography of Nikola tesla

http://www.frank.germano.com/my_inve...ikolatesla.htm

A brief scanning of the text reveals Tesla has 'out-of-body/astral projection/remote viewing' experiences too!

An excerpt:

One afternoon, which is ever present in my recollection, I was enjoying a walk with my friend in the City Park and reciting poetry. At that age, I knew entire books by heart, word for word. One of these was Goethe's "Faust." The sun was just setting and reminded me of the glorious passage, "Sie ruckt und weight, der Tag ist uberlebt, Dort eilt sie hin und fordert neues Leben. Oh, da§ kein Flugel mich vom Boden hebt Ihr nach und immer nach zu streben! Ein schsner Traum indessen sie entweicht, Ach, au des Geistes FlŸgein wird so leicht Kein korperlicher Flugel sich gesellen!" As I uttered these inspiring words the idea came like a flash of lightening and in an instant the truth was revealed. I drew with a stick on the sand, the diagram shown six years later in my address before the American Institute of Electrical Engineers, and my companion understood them perfectly. The images I saw were wonderfully sharp and clear and had the solidity of metal and stone, so much so that I told him, "See my motor here; watch me reverse it." I cannot begin to describe my emotions. Pygmalion seeing his statue come to life could not have been more deeply moved. A thousand secrets of nature which I might have stumbled upon accidentally, I would have given for that one which I had wrested from her against all odds and at the peril of my existence...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Slime (Silky Smooth) on 2002-10-13 19:06 ]</font>

The response I expected. Unsubstantiated then...

You're off about a factor of 100 for the pyramid stones, although some of the obelisks were close to that heavy.
Actually I've thought about doing this if I won the lottery or was an idle billionaire. Give me 5,000 men and 20 years and I would gladly do it with ancient technology (although I would insist on modern medicine and safety procedures)

The science show Nova conducted some experiments in building a small 200 stone pyramid and raising a small obelisks. They found that a team of 12 men could easily move a block the size of the ones used in the great pyramid, again, using ancient technology.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid/explore/

You do realize that the town of the builders was recently found, including a graveyard that had tombs of the foremen with descriptions of the day to day building of them, don't you?

http://www.guardians.net/hawass/buildtomb.htm

I don't believe in most of them, doesn't mean I don't know what the word means....

I don't visit Apollo Hoax, and it didn't surprise me, I've heard it all before. I know quite abit about Tesla, and physics, and know he didn't build any 'free energy' machine... A place with the url http://www.alienzoo.com is not a reliable source of information nor is a hollywood movie, even if it does have Orson Wells in it. Tesla seems to be the 'goto guy' for a lot of crank theories, from the Tungaska blast to Haarp, none of them are likely true.

What kind of childish insult is that?

As a matter of fact, a spanish version of the radio play was broadcast in Chile and Ecuador, and caused similar panics. http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/war_worlds.html

So do I, point?





_________________
"Ignorance has caused more calamity than malignity" H.G. Wells

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Rift on 2002-10-13 19:18 ]</font>

Have a care here, Slime. This thread is already on the hairy edge of being locked.

I believe it was primarily about UFOs.

Ah, you heard it on television. It must have been true, then. Everything on television is true.

You spoke to him? That must have been a pretty complicated arrangement.

Not from my end, but definitely complicated on his end. He hears just fine, but he takes up to a minute to compose an original response on his computer.

I spoke to him for half an hour, and it was mostly about Star Trek. Did I ask him specifically about whether his research is aided by aliens? No, but the question of alien life did come up. We agreed that extraterrestial intelligent life forms probably wouldn't look like Michael Westmore's makeup designs.

Next time you have his ear, ask him whether it is true.

I can't say when or if that will occur. If he says "yes" what do you think that will do to his credibility as a scientist? If he says "no" will he be accused of disinformation?

Consider the nature of the claim. One of the world's foremost scientists says he is assisted by space aliens. A very extraordinary claim indeed, and one that would raise many eyebrows among Hawking's colleagues.

Consider the nature of a source: a television program on UFOs, perhaps including much that is speculative or apocryphal.

I would be delighted have another opportunity to talk to Stephen Hawking, but that's not likely anytime soon. Historical research deals all the time with conflicting and possibly apocryphal information. We can't often go back and try to get that information again from the source. (E.g., the source may be dead.) And so we sometimes have to use our best judgment about how reliable the evidence is vis-a-vis the extraordinariness of the claim.

Is he online for discussion?

Not that I know of.

You're off about a factor of 100 for the pyramid stones

Those pyramid stones just don't look that big in real life.

... although some of the obelisks were close to that heavy.

And any competent guide in Egypt can take you to where you can see obelisks that were damaged during quarrying, carving, and transporting, as well as partially completed obelisks in situ.

You do realize that the town of the builders was recently found

Been there. I wouldn't recommend a visit unless you're pretty interested in abstract archaeology. If you're looking to be impressed by the wonders of ancient Egypt, stick to the beaten path.

It does have the virtue of being relatively uncrowded; my party had the place all to ourselves.

tombs of the foremen with descriptions of the day to day building of them, don't you?

Been down in there. They're open to the public. I don't have pictures, though. It has to do with the stupid way they license pictures there.

As for conspiracies: I believe in conspiracies. I do not necessarily believe in conspiracy theories.

The response I expected. Unsubstantiated then...

Unlike Tesla, I do not get blinding lights of inspirations as to where I keep every show I videotape.
Call me a liar, if you like, but if I have to substantiate every program I watch, I'll be needing a rather large number of videotapes. Not to mention the time spent cataloging them.

"You're off about a factor of 100 for the pyramid stones, although some of the obelisks were close to that heavy.

I provided this link earlier in this thread:
http://www.ufon.org/archives/audio-video/David_Icke/

Either Part 2 or Part 3 (sorry I cant remember which - best to watch it all) mentions 600 tonne stones and higher. Not necessarily to build pyramids but moved the distance I specified. Have a look. Its entertainimg even if you dont agree with Ickes conclusions (and you wont).

The science show Nova conducted some experiments in building a small 200 stone pyramid and raising a small obelisks. They found that a team of 12 men could easily move a block the size of the ones used in the great pyramid, again, using ancient technology.

Didnt see that but some show I did see couldnt even move a solitary 60 tonne block to even start a pyramid.
The Great pyramid, from memory, was constructed of 60 tonne blocks / you say 6...you are probably right.
You say it was recently replicated. But it could easily have been faked. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

A lot of skullduggery in the world of modern Egyptology is currently being expounded at http://www.gizapyramid.com.
Check out their forum.
Contained within the web pages are documents of totally 'unscientific' findings by research scientists.
I'd go with the views on these pages rather than CBS et al.
I already know the big media moguls are going to lie to me before I switch on. Perhaps NOVA is owned by one of these?


You do realize that the town of the builders was recently found, including a graveyard that had tombs of the foremen with descriptions of the day to day building of them, don't you?

Thanks for the links I will study them. I have heard something of what you mention. But my interest is mainly in the science that they are discovering today, which would be highly contentious here.

I know quite a bit about Tesla, and physics, and know he didn't build any 'free energy' machine...

Actually the film shows the craft he said he could build. They looked just like your everyday flying saucers and used the earths magnetic core/field for propulsion/energy.
He went on to explain how he could plant a metal rod in the earth and get 'free energy'.
Thats the point where he was thrown out of employment by Orson Welles (The greedy Electric Power plant owner).
Also some of Tesla's research papers were confiscated by the FBI and classified after his death.
Of course that wouldnt be in his autobigraphy. But I believe his free energy stuff maybe mentioned.

In response to "Oops! I mentioned Orson Welles. All the Americans will be running for the hills now."

What kind of childish insult is that?

Well, seeing as you quote HG Wells and 'ignorance' with every post, an appropriate one.

Ref: Stephen Hawking's belief in reincarnation"

So do I, point?

Prove it you crank! LOL

BTW So do I.

Sorry BA - You know I'm a just joshing.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Slime (Silky Smooth) on 2002-10-13 20:22 ]</font>

The BA wrote Have a care here, Slime. This thread is already on the hairy edge of being locked.

Please do it, BA. It will put a lot of people out of their misery.

Or we could just talk some more about bikes?

OK, I tried.

If he says "yes" what do you think that will do to his credibility as a scientist? If he says "no" will he be accused of disinformation?

Ahhhh. Well that's it in a nutshell. It is no wonder that astrophysicists meet in a private room to thrash out new ideas.
Perhaps that's what they're doing this very minute. Deliberating as to whether to break the news that ET does exist.

Consider the nature of the claim. One of the world's foremost scientists says he is assisted by space aliens.

He also is reported to have said (dont ask me where) that ideas came to him in his sleep. Perhaps his soul went to another planet?

It is no wonder that astrophysicists meet in a private room to thrash out new ideas.

Show me a group from any enterprise that does not, occasionally, meet in private to brainstorm. Are they all conspirators too? Do they all discuss alien contact? Good grief, talk about conspiracy-mongering!

He also is reported to have said (dont ask me where) that ideas came to him in his sleep.

Ideas come to me in my sleep too. Since when was sleep equivalent to astral projection?

I have ideas in my sleep as well. Tonight an idea may come to me how we get this thread back on to Moon landing hoaxes and stuff like that. Maybe.

What about those shadows?

Ideas come to me in my sleep too. Since when was sleep equivalent to astral projection?

I may be about to find out.
Good night Jay.

Tonight an idea may come to me how we get this thread back on to Moon landing hoaxes and stuff like that.

Well, it all started with Hoagland and his crystal domes, or whatever. The Enterprise Mission is moving to new digs, so I don't know where to find his proof photos.

Good lord, now David Icke. You're really digging at the bottom of the barrel now. Of course I don't agree with Icke, and I have read him before, reptile men building the pyramids, or some such. Hardly anybody agrees with Icke.

I've seen VERY large stones moved using only ancient technology. It can be done, why posit something absurd that we have no evidence for like aliens when we know it can be done?

They raised a 25 ton Obelisk on Nova.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/obelisk/

Didn't you see what Jay said? You can go to Egypt and SEE broken and unfinished ones...

As for faking the pyramid they built on Nova, I don't see how, they showed the entire process. It was a very small one, only 500 stones I believe, but it only took them 3 weeks and they didn't know what they were doing and had to experiment quite a bit. Afterward, the engineer in charge, Mark Lehner, said he could build the great pyramid in 20 years with 5000 men.
Give me enough money, and I'll hire Mark. I'm sure we'd both be glad to prove it to you.

__________________
"Ignorance has caused more calamity than malignity" H.G. Wells

"Getting lost is part of exploring." Uniqua in "Backyardigans-Heart of the Jungle"

"Trying to wrap my head around creationist astronomy is like trying to ride a unicycle around a Moebius strip: it’s off-balance, physically impossible, full of one-sided arguments, and in the end you don’t go anywhere." Phil Plait

"...man has a strange trait: When faced with an unsolved problem he likes to concoct a fantastic mental image, one he can never escape even when the problem is solved and the truth revealed." - Goethe

[img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

... reptile men building the pyramids, or some such.

I have a hard time understanding the mystique applied to the Giza complex. I mean, yes, I understand their pre-eminence and agree with it. But to hear some people talk you'd think only three pyramids were ever built by the Egyptians, and it was such a remarkable and unduplicatable feat that mere humans couldn't have achieved it.

For heaven's sake, the whole hystory of pyramid-building is laid out on the desert floor from Saqqarah to Giza, replete with disasters, false starts, abandoned efforts, and experiments.

The package tours tend to ignore them because they aren't as appealing to the general tourist, and some are remote. I happened to have a wonderful guide whom I contracted personally and paid well to show me what I wanted to see.

why posit something absurd that we have no evidence for like aliens when we know it can be done?

Why posit something absurd even if we don't know how it's done? Obviously if we fail to understand something, we know the answer will lie outside our current understanding. Why must it necessarily lie so enormously far outside it?

A hypothesis is not useful if it relies on premises that can't be proven or even characterized. Or worse, can be anything it has to be in order to make the conclusion hold. This includes such premises as, "The aliens' technology is so advanced that we don't have the 'paradigm' to deal with it." That's carte blanche to hypothesize whatever you need. Logically speaking, it's utterly useless as a bit of proof.

Didn't you see what Jay said? You can go to Egypt and SEE broken and unfinished ones...

Ah, but the conspiracy theorists are now arguing that all this has been put there for the benefit of tourists, a sort of retrospective attempt to make the party line seem plausible. The problem is that the party line was plausible even before all the evidence was uncovered to support it.

The conspiracy theorists like to tell us that we skeptics are afraid of a reality that includes space aliens. It looks more to me like the conspiracy theorists are afraid of a world that is mostly as it appears to be.

"It is no wonder that astrophysicists meet in a private room to thrash out new ideas. "

Now and again they do meet in private in order to try to avoid getting interrupted while thrashing out new ideas. I`ve been in a few of these private meetings believe me there was no ET stuff in any of the ones i was present in. (though i guess i was an insider so i would say that [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] ) Since they are coming up with new ideas they cant be all that closed minded can they?
Actually one of them was interrupted by a bus driver phoning up because he had some unconventional thoughts/questions about GR and he got an appointment to discuss the ideas that day. So in my personal experience at least, the scientists i`ve met have been anything but overly secretive and closed minded.

Back and forth, back and forth, calm down!!! Let others put some opinion in and continue you back and forth refuting in e-mail or private massaging. This is a COMMUNITY board, please think of others. While it is enjoyable to listen (read?) to you two argue, it is not very prductive. And Slime, quit with the language, it does not help your point.

P.S. Is it just me or does JayUtah and Slime sound like the same person with two different screen names? They both use the same writing style (bold, then plain) and are exact opposite in their agressiveness. This is just a thoughtm, but we may be readiong a argument between the same person. But come to think of it it is a very long and drawn out argument if i do say so. Nevermind...

__________________
GIYUL :-)
"It takes Thousands to fight a battle for a mile, Millions to hold an election for a nation, but it only takes One to change the world." - Dan Sandler 2002

Interesting theory.. a split personality? His two brain hemispheres fighting out an unresolved inner conflict - that's thrilling [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

P.S. Is it just me or does JayUtah and Slime sound like the same person with two different screen names? They both use the same writing style (bold, then plain) and are exact opposite in their agressiveness. This is just a thoughtm, but we may be readiong a argument between the same person. But come to think of it it is a very long and drawn out argument if i do say so. Nevermind...

I don't think they are the same person. The bold/plain thing is something we have used at apollohoax to answer specific points in another's arguments. I believe the technique was developed by aliens, just after they built the pyramids and just before they built Stonehenge.

[img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img]

Would that also be after they constructed the "face" on Mars and built cities on the moon? [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]


_________________
"I am not left handed either."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Laser Jock on 2002-10-14 10:18 ]</font>

Sorry, but I can't see how anybody can think Jay is Slime.

Also, Jay does NOT have an agressive argument style, he's simply trying to answer/debunk somebody who is agressive.

I also don't think it is back and forth. Slime has been refuted at every point. We HAVE to this in a public forum or other people are going to fall for this silliness.

Slime has demonstrated the lack of any evidence for these crank theories. This is a good thing to be done in public, fence-setters will see how wrong these theories really are and how narrow-minded their adherents are. Slime won't accept ANY theory except the one he endorses, while we have tried to show him that there are many many other more plausable explanations.

__________________
"Ignorance has caused more calamity than malignity" H.G. Wells

"Getting lost is part of exploring." Uniqua in "Backyardigans-Heart of the Jungle"

"Trying to wrap my head around creationist astronomy is like trying to ride a unicycle around a Moebius strip: it’s off-balance, physically impossible, full of one-sided arguments, and in the end you don’t go anywhere." Phil Plait