If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum > Space and Astronomy > Conspiracy Theories
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61 (permalink)  
Old 09-June-2006, 09:14 PM
Sam5 Sam5 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,141
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimD
Lee Harvey Oswald, one man in isolation, could not possibly have put things together in such a way as to shoot the President of the U.S. of A. There would have been too many parameters and vectors to be considered. Say 20 off.
That’s not the way to look at it.

The way to look at it is that a lot of guys have wanted to kill presidents, governors, presidential candidates, and even movie stars. Many try, but only in a few situations do all the circumstances come together that allow them to succeed.

The biggest chance event that helped Oswald was the lucky break (for him) that had the President riding past his workplace in an open limousine at a time in his life when Oswald was angry at everybody.

As far as Oswald “putting things together” goes, all he had to do was take his rifle into the Book Depository broken down inside a large paper wrapper. All he had to “put together” was his rifle.
  #62 (permalink)  
Old 09-June-2006, 09:20 PM
Sam5 Sam5 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,141
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaphodBeeblebrox
Far Weirder ...

Even By Marine Corps Standards, Oswald was, a Damn Good Rifleman; Didn't he Have a Marksmanship Certification, Or Something?

In Fact, If he Was Aiming, Instead, At The So-Called Sniper's Triangle, From the Point of The Nose to The Tip of Each Collar Bone, he Would have Been, Even MORE Likely, To Make The Shots, Attributed To him!!!

The Warren Commission published his old Marine targets. They were upper body silhouette targets. The score range was centered on the upper chest area. The top of the head area was considered “off target”. This type of training allowed shooters to be off-target by many inches and still score a hit and a kill. I don’t think he was aiming for the head at all, just the upper body.
  #63 (permalink)  
Old 10-June-2006, 12:00 AM
Gillianren's Avatar
Gillianren Gillianren is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 11,921
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimD
Lee Harvey Oswald, one man in isolation, could not possibly have put things together in such a way as to shoot the President of the U.S. of A.
Why? What makes him different from Charles Guiteau?
__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"
  #64 (permalink)  
Old 10-June-2006, 12:01 AM
twinstead's Avatar
twinstead twinstead is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Cleveland OH
Posts: 512
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gillianren
Why? What makes him different from Charles Guiteau?
Yea, but the Illuminati killed Garfield too. Don't you know that?
  #65 (permalink)  
Old 10-June-2006, 03:23 AM
PhantomWolf's Avatar
PhantomWolf PhantomWolf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base
Posts: 5,619
Send a message via ICQ to PhantomWolf Send a message via AIM to PhantomWolf Send a message via MSN to PhantomWolf Send a message via Yahoo to PhantomWolf
Default

I don’t think he was aiming for the head at all, just the upper body.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was leading the target under the assumption the driver might accerate with the gunshots.
__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran
  #66 (permalink)  
Old 10-June-2006, 03:52 AM
Sam5 Sam5 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,141
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf
I don’t think he was aiming for the head at all, just the upper body.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was leading the target under the assumption the driver might accerate with the gunshots.
That's quite possible.
  #67 (permalink)  
Old 10-June-2006, 08:42 PM
Gillianren's Avatar
Gillianren Gillianren is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 11,921
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by twinstead
Yea, but the Illuminati killed Garfield too. Don't you know that?
Congratulations! You knew who Charles Guiteau was! You win!
__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"
  #68 (permalink)  
Old 10-June-2006, 10:40 PM
twinstead's Avatar
twinstead twinstead is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Cleveland OH
Posts: 512
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gillianren
Congratulations! You knew who Charles Guiteau was! You win!
LOL what do I win?
  #69 (permalink)  
Old 11-June-2006, 03:26 AM
SpitfireIX's Avatar
SpitfireIX SpitfireIX is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,115
Send a message via AIM to SpitfireIX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by twinstead
LOL what do I win?
A gold star, of course, and a chance to continue on to the bonus round. For your next question, can you tell us who Leon Czolgosz was?
__________________
--Doug

"When your statics problem becomes a dynamics problem, you're in trouble." --me

Moor's Law: "As you go from freshman engineering to Ph.D., the amount of work required per credit hour doubles approximately every 18 months." --me, inspired by Prof. Scott Moor
  #70 (permalink)  
Old 11-June-2006, 03:44 AM
twinstead's Avatar
twinstead twinstead is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Cleveland OH
Posts: 512
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpitfireIX
A gold star, of course, and a chance to continue on to the bonus round. For your next question, can you tell us who Leon Czolgosz was?
Well, just one of my favorite anarchist/assassins ever, as a matter of fact!
  #71 (permalink)  
Old 11-June-2006, 04:50 PM
Andre Andre is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Netherlands & Germany
Posts: 80
Default

Jim Files shot Kennedy. while Oswald was a mere CIA sucker and framie who believed that he was there to prevent the assassination. He was supposed to get shot while running. The murder operation was not less than a overthrow and marked the day that democracy died in the USA ccording to the writer here.

Unbelievable? But how do all those loose ends get ited all of a sudden.
__________________
Quid est ergo tempus.
Augustinus
  #72 (permalink)  
Old 11-June-2006, 08:50 PM
PhantomWolf's Avatar
PhantomWolf PhantomWolf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base
Posts: 5,619
Send a message via ICQ to PhantomWolf Send a message via AIM to PhantomWolf Send a message via MSN to PhantomWolf Send a message via Yahoo to PhantomWolf
Default

Jim Files shot Kennedy.

Previously discussed here. Previously Debunked here
__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran
  #73 (permalink)  
Old 11-June-2006, 10:19 PM
SpitfireIX's Avatar
SpitfireIX SpitfireIX is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,115
Send a message via AIM to SpitfireIX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
Jim Files shot Kennedy. while Oswald was a mere CIA sucker and framie who believed that he was there to prevent the assassination. He was supposed to get shot while running. The murder operation was not less than a overthrow and marked the day that democracy died in the USA ccording to the writer here.

Unbelievable? But how do all those loose ends get ited all of a sudden.
What is your evidence for any of these claims?
__________________
--Doug

"When your statics problem becomes a dynamics problem, you're in trouble." --me

Moor's Law: "As you go from freshman engineering to Ph.D., the amount of work required per credit hour doubles approximately every 18 months." --me, inspired by Prof. Scott Moor
  #74 (permalink)  
Old 12-June-2006, 07:34 AM
Andre Andre is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Netherlands & Germany
Posts: 80
Default

Quote:
What is your evidence for any of these claims?
Oh no...we're lost, it's the Chewbacca defence
__________________
Quid est ergo tempus.
Augustinus
  #75 (permalink)  
Old 12-June-2006, 07:35 AM
Tog_'s Avatar
Tog_ Tog_ is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 2,682
Default

On Files' claimes regarding the weapon he said he used.

I've had some experience with the XP-100 in various calibers. The shooting position normally used with it in the matches I've done involves laying on your back, feet on the ground, knees raised and touching. The non firing hand is used to support the head, and the gun rests on the outside of the leg, on the calf muscle. The gun is fired with one hand. The .221 Fireball described on that site can be an accurate gun (but that plastic stock has to go). It's recoil is minimal, about the same a 9mm when fired in a single shot pistol. I know from personal experiece that a 7 year old with really scrawny arms can fire one well over 40 times in a day with no difficulties. It does NOT kick like a high powered rifle as one person suggested. If it were a .222, the recoil would have been more but still quite manageable for one hand. However...

Handguns can have scopes mounted to them, but these scopes have to have a very long eye relief. Nearly 2 feet in many cases. Because of this, nearly any movement of the relative eye/scope position will make the scope impossible to see through. Files implied he was standing when he fired. Nearly any recoil, even the small amount from this pistol will make the scope/eye angle shift enough to 'black out' the image. There is practically no way that he could have seen the bullet impact through the scope as he described it.

The claim that the spent 222 casing was part of the assassination and proves Files' story true doesn't hold up either. There is no reason to remove the case from the gun, which must be done manually unless the shooter needs to follow up. In this case, the shooter would need to fire the first shot, tip the over 90 to the left to operate the bolt (unless he's left handed). Raise the bolt handle and slide it back. Take the new round, presumably in the left hand and slide it into the chamber and close the bolt. The time to do this would be around 2 seconds for someone well practiced at it. But why do it at all? He said there would be no chance for a second shot. The XP is definately NOT a combat handgun. If he thought he might need to shoot his way out, dropping it in a breifacase and pulling out a more suitable gun would have made much more sense. There would have been no reason at all to eject the spent casing (leaving evidence of his position and involvement). Something someone of his claimed military background would have known.

BTW, I do see a reason for Oswald to have reloaded right after shooting Tippet. It was a combat handgun (sort of) and it was no longer fully loaded. With a revolver especially, you reload when you can, as often as you can.
__________________
I'm not gullible because I'm a Leo.--Actually said to me by a co-worker
Never trust anyone with 'The' for a middle name. --Said to me by a guy in Denny's at 4 am.
The difference between planning and pessimism can only be seen in retrospect. -- One of mine
Truth ain't like puppies; a bunch of them running around and you get to pick the one you like best." -- Emerson on Pushing Daisies
  #76 (permalink)  
Old 12-June-2006, 01:14 PM
SpitfireIX's Avatar
SpitfireIX SpitfireIX is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,115
Send a message via AIM to SpitfireIX
Default

Oh no...we're lost, it's the Chewbacca defence

In other words, you don't have any real evidence, so you are reduced to insinuating that your interpretation is so blindingly obvious that anyone who doesn't agree is either a "sherson" or a paid disinformation agent.
__________________
--Doug

"When your statics problem becomes a dynamics problem, you're in trouble." --me

Moor's Law: "As you go from freshman engineering to Ph.D., the amount of work required per credit hour doubles approximately every 18 months." --me, inspired by Prof. Scott Moor
  #77 (permalink)  
Old 12-June-2006, 05:44 PM
Andre Andre is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Netherlands & Germany
Posts: 80
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpitfireIX
Oh no...we're lost, it's the Chewbacca defence

In other words, you don't have any real evidence:
Are there trees in the forest? Does a light shop sell lamps? Is there water in the sea? Is there air in the atmosphere? Do you ever click links or just use the Chewbacca defense.
__________________
Quid est ergo tempus.
Augustinus
  #78 (permalink)  
Old 12-June-2006, 06:21 PM
Sigma_Orionis's Avatar
Sigma_Orionis Sigma_Orionis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Caracas, Venezuela
Posts: 1,954
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
Are there trees in the forest? Does a light shop sell lamps? Is there water in the sea? Is there air in the atmosphere? Do you ever click links or just use the Chewbacca defense.
I'm afraid I don't follow you, do you have any evidence for your claims or not?
__________________
Sic Transit Gloria Mundi
  #79 (permalink)  
Old 12-June-2006, 06:33 PM
JimTKirk's Avatar
JimTKirk JimTKirk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 720
Default

Sounds like Andre is using the Chewbacca defense...
__________________
Hanlon's Razor - "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
Asimov's addition - "Or ignorance."

"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
-- Charles Babbage
  #80 (permalink)  
Old 12-June-2006, 07:27 PM
Sigma_Orionis's Avatar
Sigma_Orionis Sigma_Orionis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Caracas, Venezuela
Posts: 1,954
Default

In my book that is usually known as the "Non-Sequitur" or Ionescu Defense
__________________
Sic Transit Gloria Mundi
  #81 (permalink)  
Old 12-June-2006, 08:59 PM
Eta C's Avatar
Eta C Eta C is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The Heart of Darkness
Posts: 1,557