You don't seem to be able to tell the difference between attacks on your arguments and attacks on your character.

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Olsen the moderator.

You don't seem to be able to tell the difference between attacks on your arguments and attacks on your character

Maybe it got started on the wrong footing early on. When I recalled a conversation acuratly but couldn't remember the context or date accuratly. Decleration was lier.

Then the more recent ones about coming unwound, or losing a grip on reality.

Yes, I think I can tell.

All speculation is considered.

As what? You don't distinguish between speculation and fact. We do. When we ask for the latter, don't give us the former.

If there really was an open debate with point counterpoint I would believe you. Try to debate and get bashed.

No: try to insist that you are being logical and factual, when in fact you are being illogical and speculative, and your arguments at Bad Astronomy will be identified as such, along with a description of what about them makes that so. You have, four times, simply followed the same rhetorical battle plan that I outlined earlier in this thread. You don't display any interest in "point-counterpoint" except whereas your speculation should be accepted as proof.

This is not a case where everyone is maladjusted but you.

Someone asked me to describe my sighting...

Asked and answered. You revealed at a tactically appropriate time that you were yourself a UFO witness. Before then you gave no such indication; you volunteered that information. Alternate explanations were proposed, which you took as an affront. That comes across as an emotional appeal -- one of many you have made.

...because they are not confrontational but logical.

Oh stop it. You don't know the first thing about logic. You simply throw words around that you hear other people use. And any time I point out the logical flaws in your arguments you accuse me of being some government shill or try to tell everyone that logical analysis is unfair. You want the criticism of your claims to follow only your predefined paths that lead nowhere. You aren't prepared for what's really wrong with them.

This is the Conspiracy Theory section of Bad Astronomy / Universe Today. When you signed up you assented to the notion that your ideas would be challenged aggressively here.

You earn your bashing.

So you are intentionally bashing? I'm confused.

The bias is so extreme that it starts to actually foster the opposite belief.

Keep telling yourself that. Accusations of ideological entrenchment are usually among the last refuges of those who simply can't make their points.

Wanting proof for claims is not a "bias."

Guess we are just going to disagree at every level.

Which brings us back to the question I asked earlier: what do you intend to accomplish by your participation here? You know the answers you will receive. You dismiss them (wrongly) as character attacks. You admit there is no "open debate" here, according to what you mean by that. So why are you here? Your continued participation in an environment you dismiss as universally and improperly hostile would then best be explained as trolling.

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No, but your description of the event is what they all seem to boil down to.

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Then the more recent ones about coming unwound, or losing a grip on reality.

Your posts became less and less coherent. You didn't leave us much to talk about. Not that it's necessarily the right thing to do, of course, but the "open debate" and "point-counterpoint" you're talking about generally requires you to pick a topic and stick to it, and to answer questions you've been asked.

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You use man machine interface in virtually all that you do. It is the level of sophistication of such that advances with technology.

I build man-machine interfaces on a daily basis, and consult on the designs of those built by others; and am very well versed in both the engineering and psychological principles of how they work. Ironically, much of that expertise is based on the science of perception that you so callously and ignorantly dismissed when it failed to allow for the desired infallibility of your UFO witnesses.

Would you care to reconcile your statements?

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I told you once that your particular argument was logic-free, and you called that an attack on your character.

Some of your posts of late have been all-over-the board rambling with no particular direction. That's what the brownian motion remark meant.

Your frequent use of strawman arguments (puttiing words in other's mouths) has been noted repeatedly, as has your habit of repeating words you see others using with no apparent understanding of their meaning.

I don't recall anyone saying you were coming unwound, but your command of logic and rhetoric certainly appear to be.

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Olsen the moderator.

It is.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

It appears Jay has considerably more control than you do. Anything is more than nothing.


Meanwhile, any one old enough to remember sideshows?

They were always located in the less attractive parts of the circus, and promised all sorts of revelations, but invariably turned out to be seamy, illogical constructions that tested and often exceeded one's credibility.

But for the short time one attended, and the amount one paid, they were entertaining.

And soon forgotten.

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I only went into a sideshow once. I snuck in under the side tent flap.
Really. I think the guy inside knew or suspected that I'd snuck in.
Like -- if he'd taken a ticket from me, he'd have remembered.

And I'm not likely to forget it anytime soon, although I left before the
show was over. I left after the guy standing to my right fainted and
fell backwards. I hope he wasn't hurt. Darn lucky it was dirt and not
concrete underfoot.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

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"I find astronomy very interesting, but I wouldn't if I thought we
were just going to sit here and look." -- "Van Rijn"

"The other planets? Well, they just happen to be there, but the
point of rockets is to explore them!" -- Kai Yeves

Must have been a good show! Glad that fellow apparently survived. What caused his reaction?

I guess they toned them down for the prudes in New England.

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Hey, which group of aliens is it that's responsible for most of the patootie probing?

Is this a trait common to most advanced interstellar civilisations or just the ones from the Deliverance Arm of the Milky Way? (Newly discovered, found by looking at the full moon of a then obscure star called Ned Beatty. You may not have seen the press release yet.)

Curious where all that started if anyone knows.

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Science fiction was never meant to be an educational tool. - Editor Amazing Tales

Curious where all that started if anyone knows.
First reported by Barney Hill.

In Western medieval legend, an incubus is a demon in male form supposed to lie upon sleepers, especially women, in order to have sexual intercourse with them.

This thing is as old as the world. (Figuratively speaking.)

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I don't know and I don't care. I am going to get one of these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9tj3xnsqfY

I will never have to lose sleep because I am worried about getting abducted again.

Where can I get me one of them things?

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Olsen the moderator.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=377_1214130431

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f00_1214113883

Here is a couple more for you amusement. Have some fun on me.

If a balloon were moving that fast with the wind trees would be falling.
No matter how much you debunk, they just won't go away. Reality just won't play ball your way. These things are popping up all over the world in increasing numbers. Keep laughing and put your head back in the sand. Maybe people who can think for themselves will eventually figure them out and you will be the joke.

Well the first one looked like a baloon, and the second one did as well.

what would you say they are?

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what would you say they are?

I don't know what they are. But they are too fast too be balloons.

Below is the post I copied from a UFO web site. He could be lying of course, but it appears to be a 14 year old kid who is scared. Afraid of being ridiculed, he dosn't know where to turn. Do you care to make a few jokes about him as well?

Hi the most scariest thing i happened when i was 8. I was little at the time so i didnt know the much differences.One night i was sleeping and i remember that i was looking out at the stars.I started to ee flashing lights and i saw an aircraft.i dont remeber the date because it was 6 years ago.But anyways i saw the aircraft and the next thing i know im in on this table and there were white lights.So i think im dreaming until these wierd "people" come in and thyre completely grey wearing only a sliver suit .it looked a little like aluminum.They started coming towards me but then i woke up in my bed.Guess what?It was the next day's evening!most people dont believe my story but im really really scared and i sstill have a mark on my leg ever since...please..do you believe me?...

Why? I have seen Baloons moving that fast. All it needs is a bit of a breeze and away they go.

As for the 14 year old kid, it sounds like a nightmare, I can make some jokes about him if you want, should it make me feel guilty that you are claiming he is a kid and therefore he must be believed?? How do you know it's a 14 year old kid? have you met him?

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Get real. Exactly how fast do you think the object is moving? Feel free to give us numbers and how you calculated the speeds. Otherwise, your claim about the trees falling down is just plain bunk. If you want to push the "I believe" button, that is your choice. However, don't try and tell me black is white. These look like balloons and should be considered as probable balloons until evidence is presented otherwise. So far you have not provided any evidence that they are not balloons.

Again, demonstrate how you determined they are "too fast" to be balloons?

Really? Get out your calculater and calculate wind speeds necessary to propel a small balloon to certain speeds, then calculate how much wind is needed to flatten a tree. Or even bend it significantly. Research wind speeds at different (low) altitudes, from 0 ft up.

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Why? I have seen Baloons moving that fast. All it needs is a bit of a breeze and away they go.

As for the 14 year old kid, it sounds like a nightmare, I can make some jokes about him if you want, should it make me feel guilty that you are claiming he is a kid and therefore he must be believed?? How do you know it's a 14 year old kid? have you met him?

Thats a very selective wind that can accelerate a balloon faster than the prevailing winds that are not disturbing the trees.

No I have not met him. Could be a 50 year old joker for all I know. But I see a lot of these kinds of posts. If it is a kid that is convinced his experiance is real, then you better be very sure of yourself before you tell him that it is not.

The phenomena is real and it is not understood. If an entirely internal human phenomena then that needs to be addressed. If it is external then it needs to be addressed in a different manor. As long as the science communty ignores it no solutions will be found.

The correct approach cannot be ascertained until it is fully understood. Common sense tells me that ignoring the issue and automatic labeling is not a sound scientific approach.

No physical proof so forget it, does not make the victimized feel any better. There was a time when science saw no proof of germs, but they still made people sick.

Ancedotal evidence is not proof of anything, agreed. But it might be cause to investigate.

Really? Get out your calculater and calculate wind speeds necessary to propel a small balloon to certain speeds, then calculate how much wind is needed to flatten a tree. Or even bend it significantly. Research wind speeds at different (low) altitudes, from 0 ft up.

I do not need a calculator to use my brain. I have seen trees move in the wind and I have released small helium ballons and watched them move in the wind. Been throug a couple of hurricanes as well. I rely on my logic, reason, and experiance to navigate the world I live in and so far it has served.

You fall back on your same tired arguments so I leave you to them.

You were asked what you did to rule out wind entrainment and all you did was to beg the question. Yes we're using the same rebuttal because you're committing the same old fallacy. Hint: if you don't want the fifth argument to turn out like the past four, try something different than what failed four times.

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You said you were done searching for ETs, yet here you go again. You said you were leaving -- how many times now? And here you are again. Explain to us again how you're not a troll.

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My own "abduction" experiences are simple hypnogogic hallucinations. See I had my first when I was about 11. They recur as often as 4 times per night and as little as once every 3 months. I first got the inkling that most people's "abductions" were simply hypnagogia when I read about it an every symptom is covered.

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Which demonstrates you know very little. Where are the trees in the video? Miles away? 1000 feet away? Winds in one area are not the same as winds in another. Winds also very with altitude.

They are? That's very interesting, please share the numbers and the details with us.
Is this a recent trend, or something that has been ramping up slowly over decades? Is it a global trend or are there regional variations?
What criteria do you use to determine if something is part of "these things", and how do you manage to keep track of their numbers all over the world?