Too many questions to go back and try to get them all. Ask the ones you specificly want answered and I will comply to my best ability.

Cop out. You should have answered them when they were asked. I'm not going to repeat myself because you simply felt I was irrelevant.

What is your evaluation of...

Not likely to be alien abduction.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Not likely to be alien abduction.

Cop out.

Cop out.

No, you're once again trying to shift the burden of proof, hoping you can bait someone else into speculating so that you will be off the hook.

You have made the allegations. Defend them. Or do we have to ask the moderators to intervene?

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Do you know that you have earned a reputation for parroting comments of other posters with no apparent understanding of their meaning?

__________________
Olsen the moderator.

First let me try to answer you question as I understand it. Relevence of work:

A person involved in the abduction experiance with a background as an educator. She attempted to document events as they occured and understand what and why of the phenomena. Being a part of the phenomena and not a researcher seeking to prove a point. She rejected and debunked the new age aproach of other researchers who sought a pre concieved meaning.

While the evidence is largely ancedotal, as she states, there was some physical trace evidence she documented as it occured. If you have any desire to understand the phenomena at all, then her unique perspective is a look inside the experience.

That the phenomena is real is undeniable, estimates are that four million people are affected in some way. Denying the existance and rubber stamping it as not scientificly quantifiable is not an understanding of why it is occuring.

Is it cultural, attention seekers, mental aberration, childhood fears expressed into adulthood, or a manifestation of some external stimulus. A look inside the experiance from someone with an educator background may yield some insight into explenation.

Unless you reject the premise of Clarke that any sufficiently... then it should be considered a possible example of how such technology would exhibit itself. Without evaluation or considering alternative explenation you immediatly class it as to what it cannot be. You make a statement of conclusion and offer no support for it.

Her work is a look at what documented evidence is available. You offer explenations that are largly ancedotal as well. Or class it as what it cannot be without any supporting argument.

Further you have exhibited the very reason why much of the ley community discounts science on this subject. You impune the person presenting the case, refuse to evaluate the work, and cite the motive of the source without proof of such motive.

Bart, if I had a “dream” about being abducted by aliens, and if I woke up with strange marks on my body that I couldn’t explain, I’d call 911 and report it to the police and the local hospital. I’d photograph the marks and paste them all over the internet. I visit my dermatologist to see if she could figure out what caused the marks. I’d ask my doctor for a CAT scan. If it happened a second time, I’d call a press conference and notify all the media. I’d ask that anyone else who had had the same experience to come forward and call the police and the media.

If our doctors found anything unusual, indicating something other than a self-inflicted wound, they would notify the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta, the FDA in Washington, and the state health department. If several other unrelated people had the same marks and the same experience, the CDC, the FDA, the FBI, and the Department of Homeland Defense would immediately form task forces and send teams of investigators over to our houses to investigate the situation. The media would be setting up their satellite trucks in all our neighborhoods.

If 4 million Americans were having this same experience, the President would declare a National Emergency like what was done during the anthrax crisis several years ago. The National Guard would be called out. The US Army would be guarding all of our Canadian and Mexican borders. NORAD would be put on Red Alert. Doctors and scientists would be flying in from all over the world to try to find out what’s going on.

This type of “strange medical crisis” occasionally does happen, such as with the bird flu scare in Canada a couple of years ago, the hantavirus scare in the Southwest several years ago, and the anthrax scare up in NY and DC back around 2001.

There is another medical crisis in this country that some people fall victim too, and it is called "paranoia". You need to look up paranoia on medical websites and read about it.

I asked you to present the cases for your claims. You refuse. The "lay" community does not really matter and public opinion does not matter either. It is FACT that is important. You claim that people have been abducted and examined. There is not one iota of proof of this.

You have a foot doctor supposedly removing implants. Strange that not one has been presented as evidence. The foot doctor apparently is afraid to discover that the implants are not alien at all. People claim they are being abducted regularly. Yet not one has ever recorded such an abduction on videotape or bothered to get a security system to stop from being abducted. I read in one instance, that the aliens could not be videotaped because they are not visible to electronic equipment (the aliens can even walk through walls). In other reports, the aliens are performing a genetic breeding program. The list goes on and on.

Are you kidding me? Is this what you consider strong evidence? You keep saying that science is ignoring these things but science keeps asking "where is the evidence" and "present it so it can be examined". Nothing is presented and any evidence (implants, hairs, etc) is, instead, hidden from science. Then, these "keepers of the secret" get individuals like yourself to believe that science is not interested. I suggest you pay attention to the bilge you are being fed. Abduction researchers walk a very fine line. If this is a psychological problem, then they just make matters worse because they aren't helping. If it is a physical case of alien abduction, they aren't helping because they let it keep happening. I am not sure how you can praise that.

Being a part of the phenomena and not a researcher seeking to prove a point.

And this is different than an alleged victim seeking to prove a point? Appeals to pity abound in both her and your arguments.

That the phenomena is real is undeniable...

Straw man. It is being attributed to alien abduction without any proof of that.

A look inside the experiance from someone with an educator background...

Handwaving. You have yet to establish that her background has anything to do with the validity of her conclusions or the soundness of her method.

Unless you reject the premise of Clarke that any sufficiently... then it should be considered a possible example...

Affirmed consequent. Asked and answered.

You make a statement of conclusion and offer no support for it.

I have drawn no conclusion. I have rejected as extremely unlikely your claim that the symptoms Turner identifies are the result of alien abduction. That rejection is predicated upon the total lack of proof of any such connection. It is your job to provide the evidence to satisfy it.

Or class it as what it cannot be without any supporting argument.

False. I have described numerous times that the lack of prima facie evidence -- which is stipulated by both you and Turner -- is grounds for not accepting your claims. You simply fail to understand even the most basic principles of scientific inquiry, so you don't understand why the absence of prima facie evidence is fatal to the hypothesis.

You have alleged the cause to be alien abduction. I dispute that cause because there is no proof for it. You still have the burden of proof. The disputer does not, and never can, accept a burden of proof for the negative, converse proposition.

You repeatedly attempt to assign a burden of proof to your critics when they express skepticism at your conclusion. We are not going to play that game anymore. Stop putting words in people's mouths, stop trying to shift the burden of proof; either prove or concede your claims without further delay.

You impune the person presenting the case, refuse to evaluate the work, and cite the motive of the source without proof of such motive.

False. I am not impugning the person; I am impugning the qualifications of the person, which was your stated basis for the insinuated strength of the claim. You presented Karla Turner's work as being worthy of special attention because she had a background which you alleged would assure a higher degree of reliability to her research. I specifically asked you that question, and you specifically answered it that way.

That worthiness has been challenged because her background was misstated and has now been determined to be irrelevant. When something is presented as expert research, the question of whether it's expert research is not only relevant, it's all that's relevant. Now you're backpedalling, because it's clear you haven't done the homework necessary to determine whether she really was qualified.

So in addition, her method and conclusions have also been examined independently of her alleged qualification. She states her principal conclusion (which you blatantly lied about) as an absolute certainty, something no scientific study does. She also states a conclusion based on absolutely no prima facie plausibility -- again something no scientific study does. She finally accuses the government of covering up alleged evidence that would supposedly prove her case -- something scientific inquiry does not do.

By one line of reasoning she has no scientific credentials or qualifications, yet she is playing at being a scientist. We may not therefore accept her findings as those of one learned in the field.

By a completely different line of reasoning, her findings and the methods by which they were reached violate several important precepts of scientific inquiry. We may not therefore accept her findings as well-formed science.

Justify why her work deserves further attention from fair-minded people.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Bart, if I had a “dream” about being abducted by aliens, and if I woke up with strange marks on my body that I couldn’t explain, I’d call 911 and report it to the police and the local hospital. I’d photograph the marks and paste them all over the internet. I visit my dermatologist to see if she could figure out what caused the marks. I’d ask my doctor for a CAT scan. If it happened a second time, I’d call a press conference and notify all the media. I’d ask that anyone else who had had the same experience to come forward and call the police and the media.

And you would find yourself given a pat on the back, assured that you are ok, and the interns and doctors would roll their eyes and snicker behind your back.

Same reaction I get on this forum.

I asked you to present the cases for your claims. You refuse. The "lay" community does not really matter and public opinion does not matter either. It is FACT that is important. You claim that people have been abducted and examined. There is not one iota of proof of this.

When did I refuse. I presented the work of Karla Turner. She documented the evidence.

If this is a psychological problem, then they just make matters worse because they aren't helping. If it is a physical case of alien abduction, they aren't helping because they let it keep happening. I am not sure how you can praise that.

As to letting it keep happening. I see person after person posting on forums asking what the [thinly disguised expletive deleted] is going on, and how can I stop it from happening. They are ignored or rubber stamped as kooks while remaining powerless to do anything about it. So far video cameras have recorded blank frames.

I have withstood a multitude of accusations, attacks on character, and phrases of parroting, pointed evaluation that I am incapable of rational thought, and general derision just for bringing up the subject. The victims and witnesses fold and go away with only one tenth the ridicule. I am in a safe position because I am not a witniss or an abductee and have enough confidence in myself that I just don't care what the opinion here is of me.

I presented a case study by someone who documented her work and refused to be a victim. Evaluate it or not, that choice is yours. My opinion is of little importance and I have nothing further to present.

Four million and counting. You can expect the subject will come up again from other sources. As for me.

I rest my case.
regards

Justify why her work deserves further attention from fair-minded people.

It doesn't

Have a good day.

It doesn't

Very well; let's hear no more of Karla Turner.

Is there any other evidence you'd care to present in favor of your alien-abduction claims?

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

I presented the work of Karla Turner. She documented the evidence.

You presented the work of Karla Turner as an expert. She was shown not to be an expert.

She documented evidence of something. She asserted unequivocally that it was evidence of alien abduction. There is no evidence presented either by her or by you that makes the connection between the effects she documented and the cause she demands must be true. She admits there is no evidence her preferred cause even exists as an actual, real phenomenon.

You simply put on blinders to all of that. As with the plasma phenomenon, you demand that an investigation be done exactly your way and no other way, regardless of whether your way is the right way.

So far video cameras have recorded blank frames.

Leading to the unparsimonious claim that space aliens must be invisible. At no time is the space alien hypothesis relaxed. The Nargles (er, um, space aliens) are simply redefined to have whatever form fits the observation. Blatantly circular.

I have withstood a multitude of accusations, attacks on character, and phrases of parroting, pointed evaluation that I am incapable of rational thought, and general derision just for bringing up the subject.

You have withstood nothing more than a test of your claims, the kind that we and others endure every day. If you are unaccustomed to that level of rigor, then that is unfortunate. Evidence was given for each claim made. I have little personal sympathy for accusations of hurt feelings after having been told that I'm a government shill with my head in the sand, simply for having given reasons for my disagreement with your claims.

If you believe you have been attacked unfairly, stop complaining and notify a moderator. Put your money where your mouth is.

I just don't care what the opinion here is of me.

Then stop complaining about it. The "poor, poor me" role has been done to death in pseudoscience circles.

I presented a case study by someone who documented her work and refused to be a victim.

You presented the work of someone whose credentials you misrepresented and whose conclusions you blatantly lied about. You said she had the credentials to make her study credible -- not true. You said she didn't jump to any conclusions about space aliens -- not true. As to "refusing to be a victim," she played the victimized role for the whole rest of her life, and even got people to pay her to talk about it.

Evaluate it or not, that choice is yours.

The evaluation is given. You simply refuse to deal with it. The problem is that it wasn't the straw-man evaluation you expected. No one fell into your trap, and now you're all out of ideas.

My opinion is of little importance and I have nothing further to present.

On any other topic? Or will we see a fourth act to your "The government is covering this up!" play?

I rest my case.

What case?

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Why would people abducted by aliens be returned?

Thought you tried to rest your case (again) in the prior post. Meanwhile, as Jay pointed out, you can't rest your case until you have one.

__________________
A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

Seems to be an echo in here.

Meanwhile, nice try at selling a sweeping generalisation based on a strawman. Actually it really wasn't even a good try.

Oh yeah, concerning common sense ≠ good sense.

__________________
A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

By stating my position (in a quote box, no less!) I have fulfilled the entirety of my responsibility with respect to proof. So now the onus is on Mr 5050 to prove otherwise.

I asked you to back up your claim that the same skin marks were being found on different people. One case is not enough. Show me the photos of the marks and how they are identical from person to person. Case files please.



That in itself indicates it probably is not a physical issue. It is psychological. All you are doing is parroting the storyline you want to hear. I think psychologists are more interested in helping these people out and understanding the issue here. Unfortunately, the UFOlogists have got these people believing it is not psychological but physical. The abduction researchers make a name for themselves and the abductees receive no help at all in understand the true nature of the issue. To me that says a lot about abduction researchers. They are con men. You are just buying into the con.

Where have I heard that line before? I am not sure where the 4 million and counting comes from. Another made up number by abduction researchers/UFOlogists that you easily bought? Do you want to buy a bridge in Brooklyn? I can sell it to you real cheap. It's a steal.

__________________
Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

Your frustration is understandable, but please don't use thinly disguised profanity on this forum as it's a rules violation (see Rule 3 here). Thanks.

Please excuse, it was a direct quote from another forum on abduction from a confused abductee seeking answers.

By stating my position (in a quote box, no less!) I have fulfilled the entirety of my responsibility with respect to proof. So now the onus is on Mr 5050 to prove otherwise.

You pose a conclusion without having done an analysis of my fur.

Why would people abducted by aliens be returned?

Do you shoot your sheep or keep them for next years wool. They are farming us.

Her husband now holds copyright to her work and makes it available at no charge. Motivation for profit is invalid.

Not opening this for more discussion. Just wanted to make sure purpose and intent was clear. Still no further evidence so concede ancedotal evidence does not meet your standards of proof.

regards

Hey Bart. Another spirited albeit ill fated thread. I assure you I am not trying to be a smart a-- here, nor am I talking down to you. I just for the life of me cannot understand how you can go from a person just interested in a new subject on June 14 to "they are farming us" on June 16. Most of your belief seems to be based on Karla Turner's experiences. I am a bit of a woo and I even find it hard to believe that this subject and the last on another thread (your sighting) is something you just became interested in. Have you participated on another forum regarding these issues? Just curious Bart--joe

For what? Further, most farmers keep their stock behind, you know, fences.

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Not opening this for more discussion. Just wanted to make sure purpose and intent was clear.

And how many times now is this that you've threatened to go away, and then come back to make sure everyone knew you were gone for real?

Oh, the drama!

Still no further evidence so concede ancedotal evidence does not meet your standards of proof.

By which I assume you mean that "our standards of proof" are unreasonable.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

I guess you have bought the whole abduction storyline hook, line, and sinker then. There is no evidence other than these stories that what is being told is true. Not one iota of evidence that has been tested! NOVA did a program "kidnapped by UFOs" about 10 years ago. Their webpage is very telling when it comes to physical evidence:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/aliens/wheresphysev.html

Some excerpts:

In interviews and in writing, and specifically in a letter sent October 17, 1995, we offered several abduction proponents the opportunity to have NOVA hire independent scientists to examine any physical evidence from a current case. We went so far as to offer to perform an MRI or other radiological tests (with the approval of a physician) in cases of alleged nasal implants. We were not taken up on our offer, and it was further suggested that the aliens are too smart to let such evidence fall into our hands.

I suggest you get a copy or, at least, read the transcript. I remember watching Budd Hopkins try and prompt a little kid into pointing the "grey" out of the lineup as the bad man. It was very sad to see somebody stoop to this kind of prompting. It was also very disgusting.

If you want to believe in the abduction phenomena, feel free to do so. However, do not come in here and suggest it is a real physical phenomena unless you have something to back it up. To date, all the evidence points towards a psychological phenomena. Abduction proponents are guilty of keeping these people from seeking help by feeding their fears and suggesting they are so special that science/modern medicine can not help them.

Budd Hopkins is one of those who only looks at ancedotal evidence that supports his beliefs and ignores what does not.

There are only two possibilities.
{1...
There are a lot of people who are suffering from stress or mental disorder and this is how many manifest it.
Lack of physical evidence suggest this to be the case.

There will always be charletons and oppertunist who prey on the weak, not a good argument for either skeptic or believer. There will always be those who cherry pick research for data that supports their pet beliefs. More prevelent in the ley community but science is not immune.

{2...
Or the fantastic with only ancedotal evidence for support.


From the consistant inconsistancy of abduction reports I conclude this as the fantastic;

1. They can control our perceptions and memory, create unreal virtual memory.
2. They project false memory that play into the abductees belief systems.
...a. Tell some they have been selected for a special purpose
...b. Present as different entites, grays, reptoids, insectoids, tall whites, military
...c. Inform some they are here to help us rise to a higher consciousness
...d. Inform some they are here to rescue us from our folly
...e. Tell some they are here to repair their genetic weakness
...f. Show some visions of Jesus or other significant figures
...g. Just plain scare the beejesus out of some
3. Prevent physical evicence of presence so that mainstream science has reason to deny
4. Posture and display allowing only ancedotal evidence to establish two widely divergent positions UFO and Skeptic

Much confusion and lack of cohesive belief as to purpose is deliberate. Keep us from agreeing and uniting, divide and conquar mentality.

Why would confusion and hiding in plain sight suit their purpose?

They are farming us. Exact product and purpose is not clear but it is clear that it is something we would deny them if they simply asked. So they misdirect, falsify, promote divergent beliefs, and create general confusion as to real purpose.

Face the truth folks. If their intent and purpose were really honerable they would simply land on the white house lawn and say hello. They keep many in belief that soon they will present themselves publicly, yet it never happens. Others are tricked into belief in divine purpose, that is never fully revealed.

Do any of these actions sound like someone with honerable intint?

They promote distrust of our governments.
Goblins, the Devil, Demons, Elves, Fairies, Angels = They have been with us for a long time and adjust the illusions they project to fit our growth in social belief systems.

They manipulate from the shadows and stay just out of reach.
Does this sound like a friend, or a user taking advantage.

This is what the ancedotal evidence says.

Until there is physical evidence then the only conclusion that has a solid foundation for support is that our archytypal fear of the dark gets updated with our growth.

What keeps me from closing the door on the fantastic is those UFO reports just keep coming. What keeps me from opening the door wide is as you all state, no physical proof that science can put in the testube and quantify.

I concede all your points on this basis.

What keeps me from closing the door on the fantastic is those UFO reports just keep coming.

Because people keep buying them hook line and sinker.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

I've been thinking deeply about this proposition.

It's difficult to imagine what the mysterious product must be, given that it is probable that any species with the technology to flip effortlessly across light years of space, could artificially manufacture any product that they may possibly need.

So what could it be that attracts ET across the void of space? What is it unique to Homo sapiens that is so fundamentally essential that the technology of the Gods is used to harvest it secretly from the 6 billion inhabitants of the planet.

And then it hit me. Belly button lint. Ubiquitous among humans, but not found elsewhere in the cosmos. Grows in the complete absence of nutrients or source products. And it is possibly the finest insulating material in the universe.

The navel-less skin of your average grey is completely incapable of generating this material. How they must envy us, able to generate tufts of the stuff without even trying. And the best way to remove it? A probe, incompletely remembered by the innocent victims of an alien lintectomy.

The truth is not "out" there, which is why the mystery has remained unsolved until now. Only an in-nie will reveal the true truth.

__________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day." - Douglas Adams

"Certainly, in the topsy-turvy world of heavy rock, having a good solid piece of wood in your hand is often useful." - Ian Faith

The truth is not "out" there, which is why the mystery has remained unsolved until now. Only an in-nie will reveal the true truth.

Just as valid as any other speculation. And a great theme for the next alien abduction comedy film.

Having the magic of demi-god status does not make one rise above the physical laws of the universe. There are some products that may truly be natures own. Are we more than the sum of our parts, something only life can produce.

Is emotion a packagable commodity?
How about a soul, can you hide one in your navel lint?

Maybe we can geneticly engineer ourselves free of the architypal fear of the dark and all those aliens will vanish in the mist. Maybe we need monsters to stay sane. Frankenstein will never go out of style, just dress him in the latest fashion.

Are your aliens not alive?

You propose that aliens travel across space to harvest humans for some nefarious purpose, which implies in turn that we have something they want. Are envy and desire not emotions? If your aliens have these, what makes you think they don't have the whole range?

In the absence of any evidence that such a thing exists, that sounds like an admirable place to keep it.

Interesting choice of words. Frankenstein, of course, was the very human man who created the monster. What monsters are you trying to create, Bart?

__________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day." - Douglas Adams

"Certainly, in the topsy-turvy world of heavy rock, having a good solid piece of wood in your hand is often useful." - Ian Faith

Well, although you didn't answer me Bart I will never believe you came up with all of this in the last couple of days anyway. Too practiced at the old trade so to speak. But it really doesn't matter. It is a small and insignificant point. I was just curious. You battle hard and I respect that. Even though you lost the debate, I have to admit that I have wondered on more than one occasion during this thread if maybe there was something to this. It was nothing you said or that detractors didn't say that prompted that notion. Even the slightest chance that you might be right on this makes me nervous. Every time I feel, "this is hogwash", I am reminded of a past event in my life that left me temporarily crippled with terror as a young teen. Regardless of how illogical the argument is for this to be true, for me to side with the skeptic (generic), would be a betrayal of my own memory. I hope you're wrong pal--joe (by the way, I never saw mine fly)

Would you like to share your experience JoeBoy?

When i asked to bart about his experience, he inmediatly was under fire ,never wanted that, is useless to debate about these personal events, because we were not there, i know a very respected (for me) guy that had an "alien encounter", i never did debate him about it -even if i think it was a mind lapsus-, he believe that, and i was not there,so...

But i like to hear these stories, really..

I personally think the whole alien-UFO is a myth, sadly i have not seen any objetive citeria, the ppl that dont believe, never will,for example on other thread the EM-mind influence argument was defended in such ridicoulus way, i dont believe on aliens, but was clear for me such argument was not valid from the start

On the other side, we have the "woos",many dragged by new age stuff, many of them never have seen an UFO, btw,the "woo" industry is very profitable (at least it seems)

Im my opinion ,the abductions have some link with sleep/dreams and media influence, many cases are related at night and when ppl were on bed, that is a bit suspecting, most of them dont remember that event, and later they discover all...., but then is my opinion, and is highly speculative

I did have some "paranormal" experiences, one of them i heard my sister voice in the night while i has half-sleept, she lives far away from me, and i heard about ghosts and such, i thought something bad happened to her, really was nervious, later i found she was fine, i think that whole event was just becouse in my sub-conscience i really miss her, ...objetively i know that does not mean there are not aliens but our mind can trick us sometimes

Anyway i want to read your stories, is just curiosity

Edit : was not a nice experience if you ask me, was not only the "i heard a voice" thing, i tried to talk , and couldnt, i tried to scream and couldnt, i tried to move, walk, etc, i just were trapped on that half-sleep stage, now if i compare with some alien experiences, it looks somewhat close