One explanation that covers everything? Don't you see that such a request is beyond all reasonable thinking?

You are the one evading questions, and picking and choosing what you respond to. Why the use of the word 'baffle'? What do you intend to convey here? I require you to answer these.

Presumably in a field or situation where you had sufficient knowledge of the problems at hand to make reasonable assumptions to get to the root cause of a problem. In this field you severely lack knowledge in several areas, i.e. physics, astronomy, photographic distortions, etc. It shows in how easily you dismiss valid answers, or assume there are no valid answers.

But these cases are called UFOs precisely because facts are not in abundance. Hence proper, logical, inference and deduction from what is available is needed, and Occams Razor needs to be applied.

Strawman. Nobody claims you to be incapable of rational thought. It is you that assumes that your thinking is infallible. You have been shown over and over again to apply logic wrong, yet when shown this, you simply ignore it and move on to the next picture instead of discussing how you apply logic wrong.

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Meet the OOONG TOE.

Rods are out of focus insects. Anyone should be capable of seeing that.

Straw man. It is not necessary that they be out of focus.

I don't know what the object in photobucket is. They are being filmed all over the world. Thats a lot of balloons.

What do balloons have to do with anything?

OK, you won't bite so I will.

The rules of the forum require you to state your conspiracy theory. Simply posting pictures without any commentary or conclusions does not establish an obligation on someone else's behalf.

The Japanese Airline sighting. Phillip Klass said they were chased by Venus.

Good for Mr. Klass. And your theory is?

And if the one from Russia is valid it is clasic UFO as well.

What is a "valid UFO?"

I would like to see a prosaic explenation that covers all points and does not leave me saying, but what about this?

But since you don't like or accept prosaic explanations and you take people to task for providing them, I don't see why anyone should oblige you.

At this point it's more likely you're simply trolling. What is your conspiracy theory?

And I would like this explenation to not have as its hingepost that I am incapable of using my brain properly.

What if an inability to think defensibly is the problem with your theory? You simply want to beg the question that you can't possibly be wrong for that reason. Sorry, investigation doesn't work like that.

I have solved some major problems in the past with brain power and persistance.

And what does that have to do with the blatantly illogical patterns of reasoning you have employed here? I neither know nor care about what you may have done elsewhere or at other times. I'm basing my assessment strictly on what I have seen you do here and at other Internet forums where you have posted. At those times and places you have behaved illogically, and it is upon that basis that I evaluate your reasoning.

If you want to be characterized as logical, exhibit logical thought. Don't simply demand that you are logical.

Not one of your arguments made a point that was not centered on the premise that my thinking is faulty. If you can support the arguments strictly on the facts fine.

Begs the question that your thinking is not faulty. Again, you simply want this "open debate" to proceed along predetermined lines for which you likely already have pat answers and responses. Not gonna happen. If the problem with your argument is that it's poorly reasoned, no one here is going to ignore that just because you say it hurts your feelings.

You clearly don't care about answers if you aren't willing to accept that they may not come in the form you anticipated. Your approach is more consistent with a caricature of debate in which you can seem to prevail by guiding in in ways that lead only to inconclusion and controversy.

If you have to support your arguments on me being incapable of rational thought then they fail and I agree there is no point in further debate.

If you cannot pose a rational debate then that's your problem.

You have presented material that seems to be evidence. That puts you in the position of claimant, yet you have made no claim. Please make your claims. Demanding others' identification of various items is not a claim.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
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Rods are out of focus insects. Anyone should be capable of seeing that.
Apparently not. Lots of people have been taken in.

I don't know what the object in photobucket is. They are being filmed all over the world. Thats a lot of balloons.
How can anyone know what a fuzzy, out-of-focus object is? Why balloon by the way?

OK, you won't bite so I will.

The Japanese Airline sighting. Phillip Klass said they were chased by Venus. Yet the radar says the object stayed on their six during a turn. The crew also saw Venus and stars and recognized the difference. Its classic UFO.

And if the one from Russia is valid it is clasic UFO as well.

I don't follow the logic here. You were discussing photobucket images (which you say you do not consider to be alien spaceships), then suddenly lash out with the JAL sighting and some Russian sighting as "classic ufo". What are you trying to say? And what do you understand by "classic ufo"?

Looks like a mylar balloon in the wind to me. Maybe or maybe not. Not doing anything unusual to suggest it is being flown by ET.

This also looks like a cylindrical balloon of some kind. Again, it seems to be tumbling in the wind and not demonstrating any unearthly characteristics.


This one could be something interesting but I am curious as to where the video originated from. Details, details, details.

Hmmmm....are you aware of any details with this case or are you just repeating what you read somewhere? BTW, the FAA evaluated the tape and stated the "blip" you referred to was a "uncorrelated primary and beacon target". The radar was seeing the transponder signal and the primary return as two separate blips. This is not uncommon because the timing for the two signals to arrive at the same time is very critical.

Additionally, a USAF C-130 was in the area that night and could see the JAL flight. However, they saw no other craft or UFOs. We also have the pilots in United #69 that was also in the area and could see the JAL flight. They could not see any UFOs or other craft.

I realize that this is what Klass wrote in his book about the subject but I have never heard of anybody refuting these points. Feel free to address those points.

Which Russian case? The video? I ask for more details. We can start with the videos origin. I find it amazing that you see one video and it is now a classic UFO? You have a low standard.

Here is an intersting one, to avoid five pages worth is a reasonable request.

What makes it "interesting?"

__________________
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Clavius Moon Base

Good tap dance that falls back on your standerd tactics.

The four cases are likely not related and did not try to say so. Therfore it is a given that there are more than one cause as to explenation.

If we were to asume UFO's are real and abduction stories are related then there is only one conclusion.

ET uses biological technology and are farming us for raw materials.
Defense industry is aware of this but is likely unable to do anything about it at this point.
Any competing technology to come up with strategic defense and negotiation of equality would raise moral questions that society would be unwilling to accept so research must be classified.

The alternative is that there is nothing to any of it and it's all a big misunderstanding. Your arguments will be to this end with no consideration of any other possibility. Your arguments will be based on my inability to use reason properly.

However logic tells me that there is only one reason for ET to stay hidden. They can tap dance as well as you can.

They take what they want and give back nothing. The very concept is counter to our moral fabric and so must remain classified.

What better technology than an intelligent spaceship, with a math coprocessor, capable of telepathic command and eager to serve.

If you think that this possibility has no logical merit then you better re evaluate your own ability to reason.

Here is one seen less often but accounts maybe for the cigar shaped sightings...

"Accounts for" implies a commonality between disparate sightings. The object in this example can be considered "cigar shaped," but that does not mean it has anything causally to do with other sightings of "cigar shaped" objects.

I note that the attributed author of this film is quite prolific in producing "UFO" films. How does this affect your interpretation of the contents?

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

This is just a wind up isn't it?

You have no evidence for any of this. In fact, it seems that the lack of evidence is your evidence.

Amazing.

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What?? You say you are trying to investigate and come up with this conclusion??? Intelligent spaceship with math coprocessor??? Telepathic command?? Eager to serve???

Answer the questions.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin
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Meet the OOONG TOE.

Oh, and farming us for raw materials and the Defense Dept. knows it, but can't do anything????

The four cases are likely not related and did not try to say so.

You asked for a comprehensive prosaic cause. Some may have interpreted comprehensive to mean one explanation for all examples, not an explanation in each case that accounts for all the observations in each case.

It is rarely the case that any explanation for a happenstance occurrence can explain all that is observable. There are several reasons for this, and real investigators are not especially bothered by it.

However it is a common tactic of the pseudoscientist to bait the opponents into making the first attempt at explanation, to demand that such an explanation account for all observations, and to then claim victory by default based on whatever observations remain unexplained -- all without posing any substantively better or more parsimonious explanation.

That will not happen here. As the claimant you will state and defend your theories.

If we were to asume UFO's are real and abduction stories are related then there is only one conclusion.

If you were to do that, then you would be begging the question.

ET uses biological technology and are farming us for raw materials.

...and this would be circular.

Defense industry is aware of this but is likely unable to do anything about it at this point.

Prove your claim that the defense "industry" is aware of what you claim they are aware of.

Your arguments will be to this end with no consideration of any other possibility.

Shifting the burden of proof. Do you claim any or all of those examples represent alien spacecraft?

Your arguments will be based on my inability to use reason properly.

You are unable to use reason properly. To ignore that would be to ignore the problem with your claims.

However logic tells me that there is only one reason for ET to stay hidden. They can tap dance as well as you can.

Converted conditional.

If you think that this possibility has no logical merit then you better re evaluate your own ability to reason.

It has no evidence. It has no prima facie plausibility. You are simply interpreting observations circularly. The circularity has been explained to you ad nauseam, but you categorically reject any statement that implies your reasoning is in error, so you are reduced simply to making noise.

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Apparently, lack of evidence is evidence of a massive coverup...

There is the possibility it is all a big misunderstanding.

If not then the rest is the only thing that fits all the ancedotal information.

Personally I would prefer the misunderstanding. But it would seem that all parties have different but converging motivation to avoid letting proof fall into the wrong hands.

I was looking at the clip of the Russian Mig-21 "chase" on Youtube and one of the comments stated the ejection seat (which is visible in the frame) is not of Russian manufacture. When I looked it up on the web, I noticed that it indeed look like an American ejection seat and not like the ejection seat for a Mig-21.

Why would a video, which is supposed to be a russian Mig-21, be shot from a US made aircraft? The answer is the image probably is a hoax. It is probably a video shot from the rear seat from a US trainer (Like the two seat F-16). The anamoly may be a reflection off the window or possibly have been inserted digitally. The important thing to note is the ejection seat is not what one would find from a Mig-21. As far as I am concerned, this video has very low value as evidence because it is not what it claims to be. So much for it being a classic UFO case.

But it would seem that all parties have different but converging motivation to avoid letting proof fall into the wrong hands.

Huh? What parties? What would seem? What proof?

You have some nerve accusing anyone here about evading.. answer my questions please.

__________________
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin
"Your right to hold an opinion is not being contested. Your expectation that it be taken seriously is." -- Jason Thompson
Meet the OOONG TOE.

But it would seem that all parties have different but converging motivation to avoid letting proof fall into the wrong hands.

You have made specific claims. Prove them.

You have been asked specific questions. Answer them.

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Clavius Moon Base

There is no proof. The conclusion is the only thing that covers all the bases.

It is an all or nothing scenario. Either it is nothing but misconception.

Or it is all of it carried to the ultimate conclusion.

There is no proof.


The conclusion is the only thing that covers all the bases.

You mean farming humans by means of intelligent spacecraft with math coprocessors eager to serve??? How did you ever come to this conclusion?

It is an all or nothing scenario.

Why?

Either it is nothing but misconception.

Or it is all of it carried to the ultimate conclusion.

Carried to what you consider the ultimate conclusion?

So you promote a conspiracy theory based on absolutely no proof?

There is no proof. The conclusion is the only thing that covers all the bases.

Found in the dictionary under baseless conlcusion.

It is an all or nothing scenario. Either it is nothing but misconception.

False dilemma much?

All this and you're still not answering the questions put to you.

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Brett
Peters Creek, Alaska
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There is no proof. The conclusion is the only thing that covers all the bases.

Circular.

It is an all or nothing scenario. Either it is nothing but misconception. Or it is all of it carried to the ultimate conclusion.

False dilemma.

Since you have no proof for your claims, please withdraw them.

__________________
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Still evading my (and others) questions huh?

__________________
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin
"Your right to hold an opinion is not being contested. Your expectation that it be taken seriously is." -- Jason Thompson
Meet the OOONG TOE.

Why does ET remain hidden?
Why all this?
abductions
collect genetic material
Modify memory but leave some beliefs intact as to purpose
varied notions
they are here to help us for various reasons
soon they will reveal, never happens
play with crop circles as if it had meaning
humans with divine thoughts create more circles and feed on the myth
false memory
create just a whole bunch of crap for the foolish to buy into.

I have to believe our defense industry true to their purpose must consider all possibilities. Further they must research countermeasures. To this end defense has investigated the possibilities thouroughly and know if it is all much ado about nothing or if there is something real going on.

So the conclusions are that there is nothing to it but a lot of nisconception and foolish belief.

Or it is as it seems and ET plays us for their own agenda. If their intentions were honerable they would land and open negotiation.

Why all the abduction, sperm and egg collection BS to begin with.

So it comes down to an all or nothing scenario.

If nothing then we chalk it all up to the same as religion and it becomes a matter of faith and wishfull thinking.

If something to it then they are users.
Carry that to its ultimate conclusion.
I refuse to believe th CT BS that our governent and defense would be working against our interests. Reason to classify and keep undercover would have a solid foundation.

No proof of anything, it is all speculation. Clearly state it as such so I will withdraw nothing.

No ET, fine.
ET remaining hidden and playing house, we need to understand and act accordingly. Drop all the new age etherial, they really love us BS, and deal with cold hard truth.

This is well and truly an invisible elf argument.

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Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

If this all speculation then why is it wrong for us to point out when you use that speculation as the premise for arguments that try to critcize science and skepticism?

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Clavius Moon Base

If this all speculation then why is it wrong for us to point out when you use that speculation as the premise for arguments that try to critcize science and skepticism?

It is not wrong. Many of your arguments made quite an impression. Skepticism has great value. It seperates what is a provable truth from a speculation.

Even in speculation one has to adopt some logic and skepticism. So conclude that this speculative ET fits the model of a user. Read Shakespere and Macbeth is comparable. This speculation is the Hypotheses that awaits proof of validity or falsehood.

It is not a horror story but an application of science. We try to build computers to emulate human intuition and logic. Genetic engineering is in its infancy. As it develops we will probobly find it easier to modify a neural brain interface to control the machine with inteligence. Computer memory and math coprocessor means precision. Neural control means intelligence and intuition. Telepathy means control the complex with a simple thought.

It would be remiss of our defense industry to not consider the implications of such an application of technology. Have to assume they are bright. Much of our technology was first concieved as fiction.

Let me guess. You're going to leave BAUT yet again?

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Olsen the moderator.

Bart, I thought you were going to take a few days to read-up on critical thinking and the discipline of science.

You sound like you're coming unwrapped lately.

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Olsen the moderator.