As I don't have any image manipulation software on this machine, that doesn't help me.

Edit. wait a mo, one of my colleagues has something called ACDsee. No, can lighten it 'til all sorts of compression artifacts show up, but still can't see a reflection of the earth. Do you mean the bright spot just above and to the left of the corner of the flag? If so, that's the end of the horizontal rod that holds the flag out from the post.

Compared with the ease with which you can see the earth's reflection in the famous Aldrin Apollo 11 shot, I'm underwhelmed by the evidence.

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"The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head" Terry Pratchett

Your last posting disqualifies you in every aspect. You are a troll and I will not comment on anything following by you if it doesn't contain something substantial and not just wild speculation.
Would you pay thousands of dollars each year to keep blueprints likely to never be needed again? We don't kept blueprints, but we kept microfilms. Much more durable and much cheaper in storage.
I doubt there are many Concorde blueprints around. Can you show me all? I'm pretty sure, they've been also put on microfilm.
You didn't do any homework.
See above. Conclusions drawn from non-facts are usually unsubstantial.
That's completely wrong, as shown in some replies above.
This finally gives you away as a troll. There is no technical connection between the accidents. Your speculation is an as valid assumption as when I say the sinking of the Titanic was a training run for bringing the Concorde down. Something punctured the hull and there she went. Same principle.

Also, prove that it was really the only flight without the arm. I'm sure there were several. Don't craft "facts" to fit your speculations.

Bye, bye.

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"Flying in space is risky business, but just staying on this planet is risky business too." - John Young, astronaut

Concorde (no definite article) was grounded as a result of a crash caused by debris on the runway, IIRC from a Continental jet which had been shoddily repaired. Assuming you are correct, did NASA bring down an Air France plane in Paris? Or were the French in on the conspiracy?

Both Air France and BA Concordes flew once the fuel tanks were modified. What finally downed Concorde was economics. Primarily spares were becoming prohibitively expensive and the suppliers were declining to supply more.

A secondary cause was Sept. 11th, the first BA transatlantic test was in the air when the WTC went down; the really bad news was that 44 of the most regular flyers on Concorde were in the buildings at the time.

Whatever happened to the shuttles had nothing to do with Concorde.

If you mean that there is no complete set of blueprints, then yes, this does not exist, nor has it ever. The millions of documents relating to the Saturn V and its components were spread out across the country among a dozen NASA centers and hundreds of contractors. Certainly many copies of these documents have been discarded, but much of it still exists. Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama has much Saturn documentation on microfilm and the Federal Archives in East Point, Georgia has 2,900 cubic feet of Saturn documents. Rocketdyne, who built the F-1 and J-2 engines, has in its archives dozens of volumes from its Knowledge Retention Program.

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The canadarm wasn flown on the 1st mission and quite a few later ones flew without it IIRC

Some contractors will have destroyed their copies as it makes little commerical sense having the burden of storing blue prints for a rocket design you are unlikely to build in the same manner again and for a program that finished over a quarter of a century ago. Im not sure about the grumman lm blueprints but belive some modelers have found a fair bit. However the saturn blueprints were not all destroyed Marshall Space Flight Center has a set of them on micro film. Also a nasa engineer donated a set of some saturn blueprints he had in 2003. RocketDye has some in its archives and The Federal Archives have 2,900 cubic feet of them. They arent all posted on the internet but that doesnt mean such information does not exist.

Edit: D'oh beaten to it whilst typing!

I'm pretty sure we confuse Moon Man with all our facts.

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"Flying in space is risky business, but just staying on this planet is risky business too." - John Young, astronaut

Where do you get the idea that all documentation about the Saturn V was destroyed?

And how did we fake this with the world watching - including our enemies of the time, who surely would have pounced on such trickery by us?

We won't even get into the number of people who would have been involved, yet kept their mouth's shut for all of these years...

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Rest enough for the individual man -- too much, and too soon -- and we call it death. But for Man, no rest and no ending. He must go on, conquest beyond conquest. First this little planet with its winds and ways, and then all the laws of mind and matter that restrain him. Then the planets about him and at last out across immensity to the stars. And when he has conquered all the deeps of space and all the mysteries of time, still he will be beginning.

The flight history of the Canadarm can be found on the MDA Space Mission site. And you are correct. Quite a few Shuttle missions flew without the Canadarm.

How old are you people..?

I'm guessing most if not all of you who have posted in this thread so far are under 40.

I don't see the flight history of the arm on this link, I see the history of when it was used during some mission.

Isnt that one a common claim of James Collier? Its incorrect but gets spread around a lot.

You have made some claims which are incorrect. The fact that this may be pointed out by a 26 year old such as myself (or others with their respective ages) or a 96 year old is irrelevant.

[delurk]

LOL face it moon man you walked into a group who knows what they are talking about and tried to BS them.

You aren't the first, nor even the 20th, to try it.

[lurk]

Welcome to the board, Moon Man.

The link takes you to the flight history of the Canadarm, which is the same as the "...history of when it was used during some mission."

By the way, I'm 42 years old and I do remember the Apollo missions, especially Apollo 11.

Look at the page again. It says "Flight History" at the top.

Note the arm wasn't carried on STS-9 and subsequent missions with the Spacelab in the cargo bay, only when needed for a satellite deploy/retrieval or EVA.

...and some of us are old enough to remember Sputnik.

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"The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head" Terry Pratchett

Comparing the list in the link to a list of shuttle missions the canadarm was not present on:
STS1, STS5, STS6, STS9, STS51B, STS51J, STS61C, STS51L, STS26, STS28, STS29,STS30, STS33, STS34, STS35, STS36, and half of the STS40 missions.
I dont think i need to continue all the way up to the current point

I saw that before, but it appears to be showing the flights that it was used on, however, if the arm was not on board during all flights then NASA is much more reckless than I first thought.

Let's begin the proof/evidence/arguments!
I think I can raise the average.

Why is it reckless to leave unnecessary equipment behind?

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"The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head" Terry Pratchett

First off, non-photographers should not analyse or criticise photos, nor look for "anomalies" in them (particularly by manipulating them in Photoshop), just as I should not analyse or criticise the work of brain surgeons, embroiderers, nuclear physicists, or chemists.

Secondly, that is no reflection of the Earth above the flag, that is the Earth. Gene Cernan deliberately crouched down to include the Earth in the picture and can be seen doing this in footage from the rover's TV camera in the Spacecraft Films' DVDs of Apollo 17.

Here is the caption for the photo from the
Apollo Lunar Surface Journal:
AS17-134-20384 ( 112k or 440k )
118:25:54 EVA-1 at the LM. This is an excellent portrait of Jack with the U.S. flag and the Earth. We get a good view of Jack's chest-mounted RCU and the camera bracket. Using planetarium program Starry Night Deluxe, we see that, had cloud cover over the southwestern Pacific been lighter, the Antarctica would have been visible at the left and Australia would have been coming into view over the top. Four hours later, Earth's rotation would bring Australia to center stage. Scan courtesy NASA Johnson.

Thirdly, the reflection on the upper right of Jack Schmitt's visor (upper right from his point of view) is of the sun, not the Earth. This can easily be worked out from the directions of the shadows in the photo and the position of the terminator (shadow line) on the Earth. Because the Earth is to Schmitt's upper left rear, there is no chance of it being reflected in his visor in that photo.

I see nothing mysterious at all in this photo. All the elements appear exactly as they should, according to my knowledge of how the photo was taken. (I have been a photographer since 1968 and was professional for 15 years.)

Hello, and thanks for the welcome.

Do you have any idea how Houston was able to immediately respond to the astro-nots on the moon during conversations when there should have been a delay while the radio wave was being transmitted..?

Envy. I'm 42 too, but I have no memories of it. Ealiest definitve memories are of Apollo 15.
Maybe that's proof Apollo 11 to 14 were fakes. I can't remember them, so they didn't happen.

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"Flying in space is risky business, but just staying on this planet is risky business too." - John Young, astronaut

The arm is the lineline for the shuttle as we've witnessed several times, even without the new boom extension.

Why would NASA include a 10,000 lb thruster on the lunar lander if it's only going to need and use 3000 lbs of thrust to land..?

You're asking the wrong question. Since the recorder is on the ground, of course the capcom responds immediately - it records the situation from his point of view, so why should he wait to respond? However, when the capcom asks a question, there is a delay before the astronauts' response comes through.

This is old hat btw.

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"We do not require reality to conform to the expectations of the ignorant"

Let's look at these "original points" and "new evidence".

The old Buzz Aldrin swearing on a bible shtick à la Bart Sibrel. Uh huh.

This demonstrates you have a substantial lack of knowledge of the capabilities of the STS and, apparently, astronautics in general.

Not if it's cost-prohibitive, or a low priority politically, as well as many other reasons. Heck, for the ABMA, launching an artificial satellite was quite doable in 1955-1957, but they were prohibited from conducting such a launch due to political pressure and inter-service rivalries.

Interesting that the way you constructed your objection actually lends credence to what you're trying to disprove.

Let's say you drove from New York to California three years ago. It was doable and now it's already been done. Let's say you don't have enough money right now to buy the gas (it's become quite expensive) to repeat the trip. Or maybe you've got a full-time job that doesn't involve cross-country trips. Or maybe you're no longer interested in driving coast-to-coast (but might be in the future). So that means the first trip didn't happen?

Not only does this contradict your first argument, but it also lends credence to what you're trying to disprove.

That's really some "original point". How many times have we heard this specious reasoning, BAUTers? Anyone have a count?

Wrong. For example I can retrieve many Saturn I, IB, and V blueprints via the Internet. Ditto re the LM. Plus there are many other sources as pointed out in other posts. BTW, you overlooked the CSM.

This is essentially beneath commenting on. I'll leave the identification of the factual errors to those who do so in other posts.

That's more than enough.

Oh well, so much for the "new evidence/arguments" and the "original points". Just more recycled conspiratorial paranoia by a CTer without a grasp of astronautics, recent history, or basic physics.

Another dead-end CT thread.

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Responses are immediate, it's the astronaut comments that would take a while.

Moon Man, have you learnt anything yet? It just strikes me that you weren't very knowledgable about certain issues to start with and this must all be a lot to take in. I for one hope its changed your mind to a degree, but I somehow doubt it.

By the way, age is no reflection of knowledge. I've met some pig ignorant old people, not that I'm suggesting for a minute that you're one of them

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Of all the things I've ever lost, I miss my mind the most!

The time delay is approximately 1 1/2 seconds. Virtually nothing, in the grand scheme of things. And this raises the question, how would *you* know if there was such a delay? Comparing the live video feed with the audio feed? They both travel at the same velocity, after all. Although there may well have been some problems synchronizing the two, I recollect watching the Moon Walk as a 10 year old, and I certainly don't recollect this occurring.

Btw, there is still present the laser reflector placed on the surface of the moon by the Apollo 11 Crew. It's used to this day. How did it get there, if we didn't go to the moon?

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Rest enough for the individual man -- too much, and too soon -- and we call it death. But for Man, no rest and no ending. He must go on, conquest beyond conquest. First this little planet with its winds and ways, and then all the laws of mind and matter that restrain him. Then the planets about him and at last out across immensity to the stars. And when he has conquered all the deeps of space and all the mysteries of time, still he will be beginning.

Recording was done on Earth at Mission Control's end. When Mission Control says something it is recorded right there and then. Signal travels 1.3 seconds to the moon. Astronaut responds to it and it takes 1.3 seconds for the signal to get to the Earth where the response is recorded. There's a 2.6 second delay with astronaut's response to Mission Control's words and no delay for whatever Mission Control says in the recordings.

When was this? I can only recall one non-scheduled use and that was an attempt to rescue an unmanned satellite, hardly a lifeline situation.

To reduce the deceleration time.

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"The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head" Terry Pratchett

I'm old enough to have followed the space programs from their infancy. I was glued to the set in my college apartment when Apollo 11 was doing its thing. It was a real treat to get involved with aeronautics/astronautics after college, career-wise.

Maybe we should take such memories and move them to a meaningful thread outside this rather pathetic realm of rehashed CT moon hoax baloney.

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