Yesterday, I finally finished watching the excellent Apollo 11 DVD box set produced by Spacecraft Films. I highly recommend this product to anyone who possesses a DVD player and is seriously interested in the history of manned spaceflight. However, although I enjoyed reviewing the various TV transmissions and DAC camera footage contained on the three discs, I appear to have stumbled across an enigma that is seriously puzzling me. The 'anomaly' that I cannot explain is how the Stars and Stripes managed to rotate 90 degrees on the surface, while Armstrong and Aldrin were in the LM after their historic moonwalk had been completed.



Let me clarify the situation. I am sure that everyone here is familiar with the final position of the flag after Neil and Buzz had erected it during the EVA:

<center></center>

<center>Still from 16mm film camera during EVA.</center>



The flag is pointing nearly due East; almost directly at the Sun (we can confirm this by looking at the shadow). The flag remains in the same orientation during the rest of the EVA, as the TV transmissions show. Once their surface operations had been completed, Buzz and Neil returned to the LM and the following photograph was then taken from the LMP's window:

<center></center>

<center>Post-EVA photograph of Flag (AS11-37-5480).</center>



As we can see the Flag is still in the same position as before - pointing almost due East.



However, on Disc 1 of the Spacecraft Films DVD set, there is some post-EVA 16mm camera footage taken from inside the LM that I have never seen before. The camera is obviously hand-held and records the lunar surface as seen through both of the cabin windows. This recording was definitely taken after the PLSSs had been jettisoned, because they are just visible in shadow at the base of the Plus-Z strut and footpad.



Now here is the crux of the matter. The most peculiar aspect of this footage is the position of the flag. When the camera is pointed out of Buzz's window, we can see that the flag's orientation has changed and it is now pointing almost due north. The flag's shadow confirms that it has rotated approximately 90 degrees.



So how did the flag change it's position after the end of the EVA, while Armstrong and Aldrin were in the LM? The Hasselblad photos (AS11-37-5480 and numerous others) were taken after the EVA and the hand-held 16mm footage was recorded an undetermined time later. Yet the astronauts never left Eagle in the period inbetween, so obviously it could not have been them who moved the flag.



I really am stumped by this discovery, but there should be a reasonable explanation as to what caused the flag to move, seemingly on its own. So far I have two theories, although I have no real confidence that either of them are close to the truth:



(1) When Buzz and Neil depressurised the LM prior to ejecting the PLSSs, the outrush of air coming out of the hatch/dump valves reached the flag and pushed it just enough to make it rotate until it was pointing north.



(2) Aldrin says that the flag was not firmly planted in the lunar regolith and that it was balanced precariously. Perhaps during the period between the post-EVA photographs and the handheld movie footage, the flag rotated by itself and found it's own 'low' point in the lunar gravity (this is analogous to a poorly-hung fridge door that moves to a certain position when left open).



To anyone who has the Spacecraft films DVD set, the 16mm footage can be found on Disc 1 in the 'Lunar Ascent' section. It is also featured on Disc 2 at the end of the EVA after Armstrong is seen climbing back into the LM (you have to be watching Angle 2 to see it though).



If anyone here has the equipment and set-up to do so, I would ask them to capture a still of this footage and send it to me so that I can post it here for comparison. Please email me at this address: fbrj_q@yahoo.com

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ian R on 2003-02-08 19:12 ]</font>

OHMIGAWSH - a smoking gun!

There's another possibility: the RCS test firing that's part of the LM pre-launch checklist.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Hey Dave, I never said it was a smoking gun! I said 'I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation for this', something you would never hear Sibrel, Percy, Kaysing and company utter. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Of course, it's possible I've made a big cock-up (it's happened before). BTW, do you have this 3-disc box set?

Jay,

Buzz Aldrin writes in his book "RETURN TO EARTH" that the flag fell over during RCS hotfire tests prior to liftoff. I found this information at sci.space.history. Of course, he could be mistaken.

I'd always assumed that the flag fell during liftoff, not before it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ian R on 2003-02-08 19:26 ]</font>

It's commonly reported that the flag fell over during liftoff, but that's never been specifically said in opposition to Aldrin's testimony. Since he was there and it was on his side of the LM, I'm inclined to believe him first. Which leaves open the flag moving question.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

I'm going to try and compare the post-EVA photo with the 16mm film footage to see if there is any difference in the soil disturbance around the flag. It's most likely there won't be, but I'd like to rule out the conclusion that most HBs would come to, i.e. that someone walked over to the flag and moved it.

Is it possible that someone did exactly that -- namely, Neil or Buzz, just before the end of the EVA?

No. Roll 37 was taken after the EVA and shows the flag facing east.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Donnie, there are two reasons why that cannot be the explanation for this occurrence. Firstly, the TV transmissions clearly show that Neil and Buzz definitely did not change the position of the flag prior to entering the LM.

Secondly, the post-EVA photographs taken from inside the LM, a little while later show the flag to be in exactly the same orientation as before. In order for either of the astronauts to have been responsible for moving the flag, one or both of them would have had to have exited the LM. According to the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal, this second EVA did not take place.

Ian, apart from its orientation, does the flag look the same in the film as in the photos? Does it have that distinctive ~180 degree curl in the fabric?

<a name="JD2452680.BC"> page JD2452680.BC aka Camera Batteries
ok:So yeah I use 12 Volt batteries i get them at the
discarded parts place for about two bits a Volt {BWUW}
anyway running the CHINon in SLP for an hour
will deplete the charge & it will stop mid frame
if it fells like it.. So sure? I cannot rule
out the Low battery, its associated Electro-Magnet induced field
An the permittaticity of the Flag pole..
Noow back to milli second once again
http://www.ess.pdx.edu/coriba/ find the missing minutes to be up to the moment {10:00 A.M.} Pst

<center></center>Here's a comparison of the Post-EVA 16mm film footage and one of the photographs from Mag 37. The still was captured using the very latest in digital video-capture technology (In other words, I took a photo of my telly).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ian R on 2003-02-15 06:45 ]</font>

Dave,

Looking at the footage (rather than my crappy still), it's difficult to tell if the 180 degree curl in the flag is still actually there.

However, the shape of the flag's shadow is similar to the shape of the flag itself in as11-40-5886. So, I guess it was only the orientation that changed.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/Hi...11-40-5886.jpg

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ian R on 2003-02-15 06:57 ]</font>

the camera looks like its in a different angle in both pictures and the flag is the same.

There is a note in the ALSJ at 110:10:33 during the erection of the flag which might explain the situation:

110:10:33 Aldrin: It won't go up. (Pause) Okay.
[Comm Break, while Neil gets the flag pole into the ground and takes Buzz's picture.]
[Armstrong (Post mission press conference) - "We had some difficulty, at first, getting the pole of the flag to remain in the surface. In penetrating the surface, we found that most objects would go down about 5, maybe 6, inches and then it would meet with a gradual resistance. At the same time, there was not much of a support force on either side, so we had to lean the flag back slightly in order for it to maintain this position."]
[Later crews hammered the staff into the ground.]
[Armstrong, from the 1969 Technical Debrief - "The flagstaff was pushed into the ground at a slight angle such that the c.g. (center of gravity) of the overall unit would tend to be somewhat above the point at which the flagstaff was inserted in the lunar surface. (That is, they tilted the flag so that it would balance.) That seemed to hold alright, but I noted later, after getting back into the LM, that the weight of the flag had rotated the entire unit about the flagpole axis such that the flag was no longer pointed in the same direction as it was originally. I suspect that the weight of the flagpole probably had shifted its position in the sand a little bit from the position where it had originally been installed."]

D.K.

Well that's sorted that.

It's not exactly an uncommon effect for there to be a delayed reaction like that. How many times has a delicately perched photo frame or somthing sponetaneously slipped?

The thing is that it is slipping all the time microscopically. Friction holds it back from slipping too much, but eventually, in its journey in slipping over the rough surface, it comes to a point where friction has less effect and it can suddenly slip wildly. To us, it looks as though it decided to slip without cause.

That probably what happened to the flag. The lunar soil is quite havy on the old friction front. That's what caused so much problem for the Apollo 14 crew with the MET. But the flag, in it extremely slow rotation, suddenly reached a point where it could move more freely and did a massive rotation to the new position.

__________________
Freedom For Fission A breath of fresh Iodine-131

It may also have been disturbed by ground vibrations when a PLSS or other gear was tossed out of the LM. That could have caused much stronger tremors than, say, astronaut footsteps.

Wow. It just amazes me how well you guys can dig things up. Here I was thinking that this would end up being one of those eternal mysteries, and then someone pops up with an exact quote describing just this very thing. Way to go!

__________________
...And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. --Sir Bedevere

The truth is out there, but not in the deluded ideas of conspiracists, but the extremely exquisite documentation of the program.

__________________
Freedom For Fission A breath of fresh Iodine-131

Great work Dave Kew - I salute you! [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
I had speculated in my initial post that this might be the reason why the flag changed it's orientation, but to be honest, I didn't have much confidence in that explanation at the time. Thanks for providing that little gem from the Journal.