Actually, Launch Complex 110 had two pads; 110R & 110L

Thanks, I actually knew that, though from what I'd read it sounded like the blast had done significant damage to both pads. If L was still usable then I guess they could have tried launching, still if it took them till September to even test the second pad, the idea they were ready to launch in August is still wrong.

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Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

110L had been tested before, but your point still stands: With no flight hardware successfully tested, the Soviets were in no way "ready".

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"Transport of the mails, transport of the human voice, transport of flickering pictures - in this century, as in others, our highest accomplishments still have the single aim of bringing men together." St. Exupery

Moonrock, for when you return:

Please pardon some of us if we seem rather abrupt with you (and I'm a very guilty party in this).

It's just that the points you bring up have been thoroughly debunked time and time again by many people. When we hear them raised again, we tend to be a little short-tempered with those who raise them - especially if they appear not to have studied BOTH sides of the various arguements.

If you feel strongly that a point has not be adequately addressed, please raise it. ONE POINT AT A TIME. Let's deal with one "reason" for your beliefs at a time, and not get distracted onto multiple issues. It makes life easier for both you and me.

BTW, please don't forget my question about your occupational / life experience (engineer / aeronautics / etc). If we can talk the same language, it might help clarify some of the arguements.

Cheers, and look forward to seeing you in a couple of days time.

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"For ignorance to reign, all it takes is for knowledgable people to say nothing"

Lonewulf

Actually, I provided a link that was several years old that contained an interview of him.

There are plenty of links to the 60 minutes interview like this one.

This site has the cost for the moon rovers as $38 million total, which even with inflation would work out to a lot less than $60 million each in current dollars.

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Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

I thought I would never see a claim as obtuse as "It would be impossible for an astronaut to get into the LM because the heat shield would be in the way", but boy, this one is getting up there...

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"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day." - Douglas Adams

"Certainly, in the topsy-turvy world of heavy rock, having a good solid piece of wood in your hand is often useful." - Ian Faith

It would be nice if you could provide some support for this claim since I can't find any.

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Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

Let's stop comparing the USSR, the USA, the Manhattan Project, and the Apollo Project. They're not the same for these reasons:

USSR: Closed society with government controlled press. Plus, Stalin. 'Nuf said. Think Hitler was bad? Meet Comrade Stalin!

USA: Open society with free press.

Man. Proj: A closed, top-secret government project that was infiltrated by one of the best espionage agencies on the planet.

Apollo: A highly public and largely transparant project that would be impossible to fake right in front of scientists in a free country.

Fooling your average television viewer wouldn't be tough. Fooling your average science teacher would be a challenge. Foolingthe entire world population of university professors who followed the space program of the '60's and '70's would be impossible. How have the HB'er figured out all this stuff when generations of nosy geniuses haven't?

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My son is my universe.

You surely have talked with enough HBs to know that only the 'free thinkers' are unfettered by the reins of The Man and can see through the subterfuge that scientists and intellectuals world-wide, who are to a man part of the evil system, are blinded by.

Or something like that...

And another thing... Why bother comaring the Yuri Gagarin bailout to the Apollo Project? That was a minor detail that could be covered up in a closed society. They didn't fake the entire project, only a qualifying issue to get on the record books.

Sure, I can fool some kids into thinking I can do magic by pulling a quarter from thin air. But if I did that in front of David Copperfield, I'd better have real magic!

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My son is my universe.

The Gagarin bail-out was publically known about in Europe anyways, at least in the Eastern-Bloc countries.

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Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

I seem to recall a clip, in a show on THC, from the time which they translated as Gagarin bailed out of his space capsule. I don't really think the Russians were hiding the fact or really cared about getting credit in the west for setting a record. They just wanted to be the first in space and how they got their man back didn't really matter. I tend to agree, they won that part of the race.

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You're a coward and a liar and a thOOF - Bart Sibrel

The Americans never went to the moon...it was a big lie

You know, it is impossible to predict the future, but the 'There's a moon hoaxer born every minute' theory is going to HAVE to be looked into. Astrology is not true, tarot cards are not true, but Moon Hoax CT'rs are actually possible to predict!!! Well done Montebianco!

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Of all the things I've ever lost, I miss my mind the most!

Why is moonrock banned? i have not follow the whole thread because of christmas and newyear and familyhappenings.

Hi Denis, there is a Banned User's thread which only the Moderators can post to. click below...

BAUT banned/suspended posters log

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Of all the things I've ever lost, I miss my mind the most!

Lol!!!!

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Of all the things I've ever lost, I miss my mind the most!

Actually, according to the report on Top Gear recently (and I think it was in AutoCar as well; in any case they do seem to be official VW figures) the company spent so much making the Veyron work that they LOSE around £4 million per car; the total costs come in at roughly €2 billion for the entire run. It's a quite monumentally expensive thing to design and build in car terms, so the situation is even worse than the one you describe. All that is slightly irrelevant to the main argument, but I thought it was worth clearing up.

Hey Moonrock - you coming back here?

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"For ignorance to reign, all it takes is for knowledgable people to say nothing"

Lonewulf

Yeah I saw that episode too. I was assuming that the cars were cheaper than their million dollar price tag, not that they were making a $4 million dollar loss per car. Working on the cars being sold at materials cost and the loss being research, that's $4 million per car, and 300 cars is $1.2 billion. For a run of just 6, that'd be $200 million each, only about 4x the cost of each Rover.

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Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

Now I'm confused; the values in dollars, euros and pounds seem to have been bandied across the internet almost interchangeably, so I can't actually tell which is right.

In any case, we've established that the figure for making the Rovers isn't unreasonable at all. As another stat point, the Batmobile in the latest Batman movie cost them about £1 million to make, and includes a whole pile of relatively stock parts and nothing like the weight limit or testing concerns of a Rover.

I'm late to this thread, been off-line for a couple of weeks. So, trying to pick up something that hasn't been done by others: Moonrock's point about the Soviets keeping the Nedelin disaster quiet for over thirty years doesn't hold up. Word leaked out and the fact that a disaster had occured was known in the west, as was the fact that the Soviets were lying when they said they weren't also trying for a manned moon landing. There's plenty of analysis of the unpublicised space activities of the Soviets in the contempory issues of magazines like Spaceflight and Aviation Week, most of which was shown by glasnost to have been pretty accurate.

The Soviets, with their closed society, couldn't hoax us, so how could NASA?

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"The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head" Terry Pratchett

I missed that. Good catch!

IIRC, we got part of the story from our spy, Oleg Penkovskiy (who was caught and executed shortly after the Cuban Missile Crisis). He reported the explosion of a "nuclear rocket". In his 1978 classic Red Star in Orbit James Oberg incorrectly assumes Penkovskiy meant a nuclear-powered rocket - which we knew was wrong - and himself thought that it was a space probe of some sort. In fact, it was a test version of a "nuclear rocket" (i.e. an ICBM), an R-16 (NATO designation SS-7 "Saddler"). This explains why Marshal Nedelin - head of the Strategic Rocket Forces - was present for the launch.

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"Transport of the mails, transport of the human voice, transport of flickering pictures - in this century, as in others, our highest accomplishments still have the single aim of bringing men together." St. Exupery

According to this site, predictably the Soviets were much more succesful hiding the disaster from their own people....

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Sic Transit Gloria Mundi