Actually, the apparent "complexity" of the flight path is more an indication of pilot inability than pilot ability.

Typically, anyone who is very good at what they do will first plan their actions to follow the simplest, easiest course and will second make it look easy. If folks are really "amazed" at the 757's tortured flight path, they need to stop and realize that this is not what a skilled pilot would do.

__________________
Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Isaac Asimov

Actually my flying experience is one hour each on a De Havilland Chipmunk and a Jet Provost!

In the vaporization and mass disintegration of a 250,000 lb aircraft both on impact AND during the peak of a high energy fire is called the process of chemical sublimation and you can’t have those conditions for the degree of material having been “Vaporized” at the Pentagon inside of just any old environment. Does not the fuel requirements, oxygen requirements and a subsequent release of kinetic energy that preclude any human flesh surviving anywhere near such an enclosed environment?

People, directly inside the building who were close enough to the center of the hot zone to have been trapped on ”all sides by fire and debris” somehow escaped from that hot zone without so much as a scratch on their body – in fact, some of these people have taken to national television on the Discovery Channel and told their story about how they could ”see the fire” and how they were ”trapped on all sides leaving nothing more than a window as a measure of escape”.

Yet, the kinetic energy inside the hot zone was enough to sublimate 250,000+ lbs of Commercial grade aircraft including ALL of its C-grade aircraft aluminum. Human flesh surviving conditions ripe for sublimation of the vast majority of a commercial airliner, yet still retaining temperatures low enough to enable an immediate escape of people right next to the hot zone through an open window?

Please see Larry Jack's last post

No, the airplane did not sublimate, since plenty of debris of the plane and the passenger/crew was found so I'm afraid I don't understand your point.

__________________
Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

Yet, the kinetic energy inside the hot zone was enough to sublimate 250,000+ lbs of Commercial grade aircraft including ALL of its C-grade aircraft aluminum.

Aluminium oxidises in a fire. It has a chemical reaction that turns it from a metal to a powder. I have seen the resulting video footage of a Petrol Tanker fire. The tank and much of the cab etc were aluminium, the chasis and axels were steel. After the fire the only recognisable parts were the twisted chasis and the engine block. The aluminium tank itself was completely missing.

__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

poorly skilled pilot

Did you actually bother to read this post Nonkers?

which part of:

and

equate to "poorly skilled"?

__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

Actually my flying experience is one hour each on a De Havilland Chipmunk and a Jet Provost!

Fair enough. Neither of those aircraft bears any resemblance to a Boeing 757. I have many hours in several small aircraft types, though sadly none recently. I have about 6 hours in the Boeing 757 simulator -- the real ones with actual cockpits used by airlines to type-certify captains, not the cheapie PC software-based ones. I have about 2 in the Boeing 767 commercial simulator. Since I have experience roughly commensurate with that attributed to the alleged hijackers, I'll keep my own counsel on what material differences exist between the aircraft types. I had no problem whatsoever translating my light plane piloting skills to the problem of handling a large "airliner".

One thing I will note: untrained pilots tend to overcontrol large aircraft. This leads to pitch and roll excursions that produce eccentric flight paths. In my opinion, the flight paths of the 9/11 aircraft resemble exactly what I would expect from a novice pilot trying to manage a big Boeing beast for the first time.

Does not the fuel requirements, oxygen requirements and a subsequent release of kinetic energy that preclude any human flesh surviving anywhere near such an enclosed environment?

Not at all. That is a common layman's misconception about airliner crashes. Crashes create highly localized and variable "zones" of heat transfer and mechanical interaction that can completely devastate some portions of the aircraft and its occupants and leave others relatively unscathed. Similarly we find that supposedly "delicate" airframe components or contents survive what we intuitively believe to be a complete catastrophe.

Yet, the kinetic energy inside the hot zone was enough to sublimate 250,000+ lbs of Commercial grade aircraft...

No. No one is claiming that. The Pentagon impact was, however, classed as a high-energy impact. That tends to shred the airframe components in very small pieces that would not generally be visible in scene-level photographs of the area.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Actually that is not quite correct, PhantomWolf, Aluminum will oxidize in a fire but only if in thin sheets and dusts, of if the there is sufficient heat and motion agitation to keep an Aluminum Oxide coat from reforming.
That has always been Dr. Jones's problem the Aluminum has to be in motion, for the reactions to take place, put the Aluminum in motion you change its characteristics completely.
The only motion in Dr. Jones's tests, what when he allowed the Aluminum to gently flow along a peace of structural steel.
With out motion no reaction it is force dependent I wonder if I can find a Physicist who can understand that.
No I guess not!
Want a hydrogen reaction from Molten Aluminum drop it violently though a metal grid placed over the waters surface the resulting increase in surface area when the Aluminum hits the water will cause a definite reaction.
I know, however at least my eye brows and hair have grown back form trying that.

Nonkers,

Others with much greater attention to detail have given excellent answers to your questions about the physical evidence that a Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon, so I hope you won't be too offended if I refrain from gilding the lily.

In the generally accepted scenario this then must've been an extremely sophisticated operation from the word go.

Why? How much sophistication does it take to learn how to fly a plane, then buy a ticket, get on a plane and hijack it by putting a boxcutter knife to a stewerdess' throat and claiming you have a bomb?

This was not executed by a bunch of idiots

I'd agree here, but I have to ask the question of if you consider those that operate for Al Quaeda idiots?

it took very good planning

It took reasonable planning.

almost near perfect timing

No, it took the ability to read a plane schedule and read a watch. I'd note that the last two planes to be crashed were both delayed at taking off, otherwise the timing would have been better. Besides, since 9/11 we have seen that Al Quaeda and others are able to time things very well. c.f. London Madrid and Mumbi train bombings.

organization, management

Are you suggesting that Al Quaeda is neither organised or managed?

supreme communications capability

For what purpose? Once the group knew what target they were heading for and had a time and a flight number, what purpose did they have for communications? The target and flight can easily have been selected prior to the mission begining while still in Afganistan.

infinite patience

I don't know about infinate, but it seems to me that most terrorist plots have taken months if not years to carry out. Look at the latest Hezbollah action. They have been planning it for at least 6 years.

extreme cunning

How much cunning does it take to put a knife to someone's throat?

ruthlesness

Are you suggesting that Al Quaeda is not ruthless?

tactical and strategic savvy

Why? How much tactical and strategic savvy do you have to be to learn to fly a plane and then hijack one? Note well here that hijackings have been occuring for years before 9/11, what make this one so much harder than all the rest of them?

subterfuge

What subterfuge was used that were so amazing?


technical skills

What technical skills, other than knowing how to disable a transponder, were needed?

evily fanatical dauntless "courage" and an all-consuming “desire” to see it through

And people the like of those that routinely are blowing themselves up in Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel and have blown themselves up in London, Bali and Marocco do not possess these exact qualities?

this was no “flying circus”!

The only ones claiming that it was are the CT's. The rest of us claim that it was a rather simple plan, devised to catch the US by surprise with a tactic that had never been used previously. That once the targets had been selected for those involved and flights to hijack had been determined, that all they needed to do was learn to fly well enough to get a plane to the target without crashing then get on board the required flight. That really wasn't very hard to achieve pre-9/11.

__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

Hey, Nonkers, what's it going to take to convince you? You asked for physical evidence; we've told you what physical evidence there was. You're asked for information about piloting; people have given you that information. Every question you've asked has been answered, often by more than one person. If you still believe that it couldn't have happened as the "official" story says, why not?

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Just keep answering my questions: I'm getting there!

As we can see, the whole atmosphere is laden with conspiracy: NWO, Masons, Lennon, Bilderberg, 666, Diana, Pearl Habour, JFK, JFK jr, RFK, Oklahoma City, Vince Foster, Boorda, Rabin, Moon landing, 911, Chemtrails, TWA 800, Iraq etc etc

When convincingly presented on the internet
eg
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...48835726&q=911
they may seem prima facie plausible, which is why you chaps are needed, to (usually) debunk'em!

As we can see, the whole atmosphere is laden with conspiracy

That's because they all rely on the same ignorance. It's easy to claim a conspiracy, but if we were to believe the Theories, then every single major world event since the time man first got struck by lightning and realised that fire was hot, through to today, including the death of every single famous (or infamous) person was a conspiracy. The idea that a famous person could die in an accident, or that a single nut could succeed in killing a president, or that an accident could occur, or that mankind could achieve something incredible is beyond some people. They want the ancient ruins to have been built by aliens and our technology to be fake or alien because that reduces everyone else to their level of ignorance. They want their "heroes" to be supermen and a superman needs an evil arch-villain and their cohorts to take him down. They want mankind to be mundane overall, but the leaders untouchable, the idea that humans can do great things, and terrible things and don't need an evil organisation backing them, or covering things up is an anathema to them. A lot of them just want to live in a fantasy world where they are special because they “know” what no-one else does, and so that, and a inherent distrust of authority, make them see Government Conspiracy everywhere.

Unfortunately then there are the ones that take advantage of people like the above, feeding their paranoia with more and more outlandish claims and suggestions until it is almost impossible to separate the chaff from the wheat. And that’s the damage Conspirasim does. It ups the noise rate until the signal is lost, and when that happens, the CT’s worst fears could be realised and no-one will be able to stop it in time.

__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

Damn Phantomwolf, you almost made me cry! You've expressed my own thoughts and feelings on this subject exactly, but I couldn't quite articulate it properly. I tried to explain it like you just did to my children, but you've done a much better job. I'm going to bookmark this and show it to them next weekend.

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In your rush to call everyone "entrenched" or closed-minded or "limited" you fail to note that the "limit" here has a very natural boundary: that point at which the evidence stops. - JayUtah

Science fiction was never meant to be an educational tool. - Editor Amazing Tales

...untrained pilots tend to overcontrol large aircraft. This leads to pitch and roll excursions that produce eccentric flight paths.

Is this due to the larger moment arms of the control surfaces?

__________________
--Doug

"When your statics problem becomes a dynamics problem, you're in trouble." --me

Moor's Law: "As you go from freshman engineering to Ph.D., the amount of work required per credit hour doubles approximately every 18 months." --me, inspired by Prof. Scott Moor

PhamtomWolf, nice job!

I'll add my two cents worth.


Really. How hard is it to go to any travel agency and ask for tickets for a flight on a specific date and time? They could also get the information on dozens of on-line web sites that sell tickets. Not too complicated.

I think that alot of people assume that the people in the middle east all live in caves writing their messages on stone tablets. I got ito a big argument about this with one of my friends recently. While he's not a CT'er, he's very ignorant when it comes to the lifestyles of that area. Not that I'm an expert myself. It does seem though, that the CT'ers want to paint the Arab world that way, so they can claim that terrorists aren't smart enough to pull off somethnig like 9-11.

Yah, no terrorist would ever be clever enough to use a cell phone. As I mentioned above, the CT'ers try and paint the terrorists as too ignorant to plan such an attack. Not directly, but impiled.

Seeing that the've been fighting the western world for about a millenia, A few weeks or years of planning isn't a problem.

Google Islam.
Google The Crusades.
Learn.

Show me a terrorist attack that wasn't ruthless?

One more time. The arab world doesn't live in the 5th century, although a few radical terrorists would like this to be so.

Note the key word fanatical. These are people that want to bring back the glory days of their now crushed empire. And they'll kill anyone, even other Islamists that get in their way.

__________________
"The universe is driven by the complex interaction between three ingredients: matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest." - G'Kar

Is this due to the larger moment arms of the control surfaces?

I don't think so. I think it's a combination of factors: the control system is just more sensitive on an airliner than on a light plane, it's hydraulic rather than muscle-powered, and there's the psychology of flying a bigger plane. Moment of inertia may come into play too. I honestly haven't figured out why that happens.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

It does seem though, that the CT'ers want to paint the Arab world that way, so they can claim that terrorists aren't smart enough to pull off somethnig like 9-11.

This is similar to the subtle racism of many Pearl Harbor conspiracy theories--the Japanese couldn't possibly pull off something like a surprise attack on the US Pacific Fleet without betrayal by America's leaders.

__________________
--Doug

"When your statics problem becomes a dynamics problem, you're in trouble." --me

Moor's Law: "As you go from freshman engineering to Ph.D., the amount of work required per credit hour doubles approximately every 18 months." --me, inspired by Prof. Scott Moor

By chance for them they choose the day when by pure hasard nearly all jet fighters were in exercise outside the aera...and the President deciding that the situation was critical enough only after the plane hitting the Pentagon nearly 1:30 hour after WTC's attack...

There is a natural tendency for people to stereotype foreign cultures, based largely on historical models - or to be more specific the media interpretation of those historical models, which may in turn be rather different from the reality. It is often not until people visit other countries that they begin to get a proper understanding.

A large proportion of the US population have not travelled beyond their immediate borders, or been exposed to television or other media from other countries - in contrast, say, to Europe. One might rightly sneer at the thought of a 2 week package holiday in Benedorm increasing people's cultural boundaries, but on the other hand a significant proprtion of the population have been to Turkey, Greece, Spain, Italy, and so on. A lot of the older stereotypes have moderated.

However the Middle East is a rather different kettle of fish. The area was comparatively undeveloped until the 20th century and the image in literature and films remains the Omar Sharif/Lawrence of Arabia model. The CT'ers draw upon this noble Bedouin savage myth in support of their theory because, as you chaps point out, it suits their purpose. Comparatively few of us Europeans have visited the area, although Dubai is a growing attraction, and damned few of you from across the Atlantic (soldiers aside).

Yet the truth is markedly different. Setting aside historical associations such as the invention of maths or the conquest of a huge empire stretching as far as Spain, the Gulf states are now quite highly developed. They have the best education money can buy - many of their brightest students are sent abroad, especially to the UK, to complete PHDs and they have a series of perfectly competent universities themselves. There were about 4 or 5 in my year when I was a Post-grad, and as it happens a similar number of Malaysians.

Now the irony for me is that so many have no problem believing that Arabs have the skills to develop WMD, in particular (if our Governments are to be believed) nuclear weapons - a significant undertaking - but for some unfathomable reason would be unable to learn how to fly and then organise co-ordinated hijackings. Especially when the chap in charge presumably has some brains, what with him being a very successful businessman.

__________________
Okay, okay, Mr. Contractor...you can have an extension of time under clause 25 but forget the consequent direct loss and expense under clause 26 - I mean, hell, I thought it was obvious that the foundations went under the walls but there you go.....

...now, I need a clause 13A quote for C4 coated rebar, please.

The chap success business is dependant upon the prestige of the Bin Laden family who received all the impotant construction contracts...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ho/family.html

Imagine getting contracts and so on because of family contacts? I hear it also helps avoid military service, but there you go....

As I had breakfast (ironically porridge, just to pander to a stereotype) I pondered how the CTers would have responded if it had been Scottish terrorists that attacked the towers.

Questions as to how a bunch of kilt-clad, mountain dwelling golfers could possibly have co-ordinated the attacks would doubtless have been posed, with no mention of the discovery of - for example - penecillin (Fleming) , anaesthetics (Simpson, I think), pneumatic tyres (Dunlop), logarithms (Napier), tarmac (MacAdam), paraffin lighting (Young), fridges (Harrison), the telephone (Bell) and television (Logie Baird). I see web-pages full of shots of mountain crofts together with clips from Geordie, Whisky Galore, and Brigadoon......

But on a more serious note, the added expertise which the CTers wrongly ascribe to the attacks panders to their racist character assasination of the A-rabs. For example the suggestion that they somehoe new exactly where to hit the towers to cause collapse (which would, let's face it, be a major piece of computer modelling) rather than it being sheer ruddy luck.

__________________
Okay, okay, Mr. Contractor...you can have an extension of time under clause 25 but forget the consequent direct loss and expense under clause 26 - I mean, hell, I thought it was obvious that the foundations went under the walls but there you go.....

...now, I need a clause 13A quote for C4 coated rebar, please.

Now why Osama and one of his brother became so bad ?

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/t...&theme=oil/pg1

By chance for them they choose the day when by pure hasard nearly all jet fighters were in exercise outside the aera

a) it's not true, and
b) even if it was, it's only be suspicious if it had never happened before

There were plenty of planes in the area, both on the ground and in the air, and a number where involved in exercises in the area, but guess what, that's what the military do when they aren't at war. Apart from a few pilots and planes that are on standby just in case (and this number had been dramatically reduced during Clinton's time in office) the others will be carrying out training missions and exercises to keep their edge. What were the planes and pilots doing on the 10th? On the 9th? On the 9th of Sept in 2000? I'd be willing to lay odds that if you picked any day you'd find that numerous groupf of the the US Military, police, NORAD and others were running an exercise of some sort of other, probably half of them involving Terrorism type drills.

__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

By chance for them they choose the day when by pure hasard nearly all jet fighters were in exercise outside the aera

This is getting into a rather dangerous area, but I'd say that this sort of behaviour, and having read a lot about the chos that was the US Administration that day, can easily be laid at the door of incompentance more than anything else. Bush's aides spend about half an hour arguing about were they should fly him to while Air Force 1 cirlced over Florida. This is not a sign of a well oiled, well organised unit that knew prior to the event what that going to happen, in fact they pretty much couldn't have done a better job at making themselves look like total fools the way they handled it. Now either they are really good actors, or they are what they appeared to be, and from what I have seen from Bush in the past 6 years, he couldn't act his way out of a paper bag.

__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

Without reading your article, I'd like to point out that people just are, sometimes. My little sister's a sociopath. It doesn't reflect on me; she's just a demon seed.

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Living wehere I do now, a few miles north of Hill AFB, 500 feet left of the final approach path, I can vouch for the fact that there are near daily flights of F-16's and KC-135 or KC-10's. I'd hate to think they are just playing all day.

As for the arguement that it would take an inordinate amount of planning to pull off something like Sept 11, I'd have to disagree based on some personal experience in other things. If you have a group of people that know what their job is, and can do it well. Then you really don't need to practice for the most part. As long as I trust that you can do your part and you trust that I can do mine, and both of us actually DO our part, then the thing should come of without a hitch. It's not like any part of it took split second timing, coordinated between aircraft.

If you have any doubts on this, find someone that plays an online game like World of Warcraft, City of Heroes, or EverQuest 2. A group with people that know their roles and perform them well don't even need to discuss tactics. Everything is assumed from the start. The key is not letting the idiot in the team at the start. I've played with people that didn't speak enough English to say more than 'Hi' (They were Sweedish), yet we made a great team because we each knew what we were supposed to do, and what the other person was supposed to, then did it.

A similar analogy would be picking members of any professional sports team. If you grab 11 guys from 11 different teams to make an American Footbal team, they will have a basic idea of what to do. A few specific plans will be made, but the jobs themselves will be the exact same ones they've been training for.

The basic plan would have been layed out in advance, with each person assigned a task. "You stand here. You stand there. No one but me gets to the cockpit once we start. Any questions?"
The most critical timing issue on Sept 11 would have been making sure none of them slept in and missed the flight. Once on the plane, the only real communication needed would have "NOW!" in the language of choice.

__________________
I'm not evil.
An evil person would do the things I think up.

I live close to RAF leeming, it has tornados that exercise every day apart from weekends. If their own squadrons arent exercising then other aircraft are using the runways for touch anf go and such

Edit to add I live close to the training base for the Apache squadron as well, they are always buzzing the moors and pretending to shoot cars and lorries on the A1 and sheep on the hills.

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Questions as to how a bunch of kilt-clad, mountain dwelling golfers could possibly have co-ordinated the attacks would doubtless have been posed, with no mention of the discovery of - for example - penecillin (Fleming) , anaesthetics (Simpson, I think), pneumatic tyres (Dunlop), logarithms (Napier), tarmac (MacAdam), paraffin lighting (Young), fridges (Harrison), the telephone (Bell) and television (Logie Baird).

As I already have a B.A. in American History, and am now studying mechanical engineering, I am naturally very interested in the history of science and technology.

Simpson pioneered obstetric anesthesiology, to be specific. Here is an article from the American Society of Anesthesiologists.

I had never heard of Logie Baird or his mechanical television--that's quite a remarkable story.

Finally, you left out James Nasmyth (machine tools), James Clerk Maxwell, pioneer researcher in electricity and magnetism (Maxwell's equations), and Adam Smith, founder of the study of economics.

For example the suggestion that they somehoe new exactly where to hit the towers to cause collapse (which would, let's face it, be a major piece of computer modelling) rather than it being sheer ruddy luck.

I've seen it conjectured that bin Laden (who has a degree in civil engineering) did plan it that way, but then on a transcript of one of his tapes I believe he says he was pleasantly surprised that it happened.

__________________
--Doug

"When your statics problem becomes a dynamics problem, you're in trouble." --me

Moor's Law: "As you go from freshman engineering to Ph.D., the amount of work required per credit hour doubles approximately every 18 months." --me, inspired by Prof. Scott Moor

I live close to the training base for the Apache squadron as well, they are always buzzing the moors and pretending to shoot cars and lorries on the A1 and sheep on the hills.

__________________
--Doug

"When your statics problem becomes a dynamics problem, you're in trouble." --me

Moor's Law: "As you go from freshman engineering to Ph.D., the amount of work required per credit hour doubles approximately every 18 months." --me, inspired by Prof. Scott Moor

The larger the plane the more the factors of friction, and air resistance play on the surfaces of the Plane, the plane is moving though air, the larger the plane the more the resistance of the air effects it. The drag produced by vortexes on the wing tips of a small plane are negligible. on a Large plane they are enormous.
As for the Hydraulics, try driving an antique car with manual steering, then hop in a new car you will naturally over compensate, on the controls.
It is a factor of Muscle Memory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory