I used to work for a large federal gov't department, Transport Canada. The operation manuals, technical manuals, preventative maintenance schedules, docuementation for preventative maintenance and repairs, procedures for taking equipment offline, procedures for replacing out dated equipment and disposal of same boggled my just-out-of-college mind that thought my TTL data book was a thick tome of dry reading.

__________________
"Man has always found it easier to sacrifice his life than learn the multiplication table." - Somerset Maugham

It seems that someone has written a critique/debunking of the 11/09/01 'documentary' "Loose Change". As this film is being given away as a means of spreading the 'truth' I thought that the response should be available at this forum as we are sure to see its claims bought up again and again.

__________________
We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

John Sladek, The New Apocrypha, pg 34.

Nice. It's always good to see reasonable people exposing these 'investigations' for what they really are: ideologically-biased propaganda.

Nice link. In it there's yet another link to a 9/11 debunking website: Debunking 911 Conspiracy Theories. They actually have calculations on their "The Free Fall Fallacy" and "Molten Steel Explained" pages.

That site also contains links to other sites, including peer-reviewed papers about the tower collapses.

I didn't want to start another 9/11 thread and this seemed like the closest match, so...

It's come to my attention that some conspiracy theorists are using the demolition of WTC6 as evidence that "pull it" means "explosive demolition". Toward the end of this video you hear a man saying , "we're gettin' ready to pull buildin' six." Then the video shows the remains of the building collapsing.

Now, I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly did not see any evidence of explosives going off. However, I did notice what appear to be multiple cables (on the left side of the screen) attached to the top, more or less, of Building 6's remaining frame.

I believe, although there is some uncertainty, that these were used to "pull" the building, which is consistent with the accepted use of the word (to mechanically demolish a building). Does anyone else agree with this? Are there any details out there about exactly how the building was brought down?

WTC 6 was a mechanical take down, not explosives.

__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

Pull is only used when a building is brought down mechanically. If using explosives, they use "shoot".

__________________
"Eternal vigilance is the price of supremacy"
------------Mark Twain

"Women are like Voltron. The more you can hook up, the better it gets."

Argh! I know this. First, I was asking if anyone agreed with my observation that the black lines on the left side of the image could be the cables they used to pull the rest of Building 6 down. Second, I asked if anyone had a source that describes, in writing and without using the word "pull" (because the CTists just don't know what it really means), how Building 6 was brought down.

Both questions were ignored and these responses merely echo back things I had already said in my post. I'm sorry, but this is rather frustrating.

Sorry about that. I have seen somewhere where they mentioned that Building 6 was brought down mechaniclly. I can't remember where right now but I'll try to find it. It wouldn't have been smart to try to bring it down with explosives anyway. First it was a much smaller building (only 7 stories) and was extremely heavily damaged. Not many would have wanted to walk through it to plant explosives. Its smaller size made it easier to bring down mechanically anyway.

__________________
"Eternal vigilance is the price of supremacy"
------------Mark Twain

"Women are like Voltron. The more you can hook up, the better it gets."

I’ve been reading though the 9/11 conspiracy claims and the supporters that you have, or rather had, on this site and I thought I’d mention a new one I have been debating on another forum.

The main supporter also references the good professor Jones and his claims. The new spin is a report claiming that two small nuclear device were used to bring down the Twin Towers. Typical of most conspiracy hucksters, the supporter in question has a rather colorful and established reputation on the web.

__________________
The Shallow Gene Pool www.podcastpickle.com/casts/12042/
2184 Headlines http://www.podcastpickle.com/casts/14206/
Podcast Peer Awards www.podcastpeers.org

Welcome Gene Splicer.

Actually it's not overly new, we've had both claims of Fussion and Fision briefcase nukes, including antimatter triggered devices as possible means to blowing up the towers.

__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

Ahh... I bet he has or will soon use the "seismic spikes" claim as support. If so, 911Myths' Seismic Record page might be worth a look...

LOL. He already has. Actually, is has become quite amusing. After being challenged on several claims, the poster resorted to labeling his detractors as government agents sent to spread disinformation. It progressed eventually to making physical threats.

Thanks for the link. I think I have been to that site and many like it trying ot debunk these huckster’s claims.

Has anyone here ever claimed that nuclear weapons that do not rely upon fissionable material were ever used? In other words, non-nuclear nuclear weapons?

How about twisting the research into what has become known as bubble fusion or sonofusion into support for a new type of bomb?

I doubt this will of any help but just in case bubble fusion or sonofusion is a new to anyone, check out this reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_fusion

__________________
The Shallow Gene Pool www.podcastpickle.com/casts/12042/
2184 Headlines http://www.podcastpickle.com/casts/14206/
Podcast Peer Awards www.podcastpeers.org

a COLD Fusion Bomb? Riiiiiiight. Although I am surprised nobody has come up with that yet

Eta C, I think it's time for Pauli's saying again:

__________________
Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

Over on the Unexplained Mysteries forum, there is a guy arguing that the towers were built to be demolished because they were built with "explosive rebar". Apparently he found some documentary that said something about a flammable coating on the rebar and of course there had to be explosives somewhere, right?

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com...howtopic=70623

__________________
"Eternal vigilance is the price of supremacy"
------------Mark Twain

"Women are like Voltron. The more you can hook up, the better it gets."

Sure, most modern office buildings are constructed like warships or starships, so that they can be skuttled or self-destructed in case of a hostile corporate take over. The CEO of course goes down with the building.

__________________
At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

But a third of the way down, pulls the ripcord on his golden parachute, and floats happily off into the sunset*.



*Sunset, Inc., 20 billion start-up looking for "leadership".

__________________
A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

It seems that the creators of the 'documentary' "Loose Change" have hit a spot of bother. It seems that they did not have permision to use some of the footage in their film.

However the truly disturbing statement is this:
It would be truly horrifying if at some point in the future the people who made this film turn around and claim that it was done as a piece of post-modernist 'art'.

Playing with paranoia, whether for polical or artistic ends is in my opinion truly disturbing.

__________________
We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

John Sladek, The New Apocrypha, pg 34.

Given that the whole sentence, which you could easily have quoted, reads thus:
Loose Change began as a fictional story about 9/11 conspiracy theories, but when film maker Dylan Avery, who is in his early twenties, started researching, he became a believer himself.,
it seems to me that your statement is just idle speculation. It would be horrifying, but what reason do you have to think that it would happen?
Of course Avery may change his mind again, should he become convinced that after all there was no conspiracy... but that would be a very different event than what you speculate about.

I think he's confusing a Sunday night music show at a Seattle bar with construction techniques. A common mistake.
http://www.rebarseattle.com/lyonssunday.php

(He has just added 25 years and a couple of thousand people to the Conspiracy, making it even more untenable; does he really think that many people could keep quiet for that many years? Also, why rig the buildings like this in the first place? Controlled detonations would not be the best way to demolish the buildings when they became obsolete. Were they planning to destroy them at some unknown future date and blame terrorists back then?)

__________________
Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Isaac Asimov

Yes, we've encountered that guy at the JREF forums. Many of us stepped back when it was pointed out to us (via PM) that he really is quite mad. Not in an amusing way, either.

Reminds me of the story about two State of Maine farmers talking over a stone wall.

__________________
A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

Indeed. Even though the idea that an antimatter bomb even exists, much less brought down the WTC, is high dubious, and even ridiculous, at least it's grounded in real physics. Cold fusion was, and is, a figment of the desires of the scientists involved. Not even wrong.

(actually, come to think of it, Tweedledee's logic is also applicable. "but as it isn't, it ain't."

__________________
"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - William Thompson, 1st Baron Lord Kelvin

"If it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be, but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic!" - Tweedledee

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. - Wolfgang Pauli

__________________
A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

Obviously when you lose a loved one, you must stay ill with sadness for the rest of your life...it's been 5 years now, these people have their own life to continue! And I think that their statement made quite clear why they formed that group. They wanted a safer nation, period. A reaction that is not too hard to get I would think.

That book appears as a very low attempt at debating politics to me.

__________________
To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

I'm going to do two things in this post, first say that I am as disgusted with Ann Coulter as I am with Brumsen et al, in my book they are just different sides of the same ugly coin.

That aside, I thought I'd just link to an earlier 11/09/01 thread as some of the comments in the last posts are very pertinent to this thread and several of the other ones we've had over the last couple of years.

__________________
We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

John Sladek, The New Apocrypha, pg 34.

Okaaaay. It seem this member of the “9/11 Global Truth Movement” has decided to open his own website in order to spread his theories.

http://www.gieis.uni.cc/

If you want to find out more about the author, search for the name Marc McCarron. You should fine the entries…..interesting.

__________________
The Shallow Gene Pool www.podcastpickle.com/casts/12042/
2184 Headlines http://www.podcastpickle.com/casts/14206/
Podcast Peer Awards www.podcastpeers.org

Talk about bad science.

I need help. I'm having a one sided conversation with someone over at ATS who is impossible. He claims that the towers were built with C4 coated rebar.
His only evidence is that he saw a PBS T.V. show about 10 Yrs ago. All he uses for evidence is a couple of pictures that he claims proves his case. He is hopeless but a couple of his supporters claim that the Fema report states that no concrete was used in anything but the floors. When I asked for a page or ANYTHING in the report to support that claim one person posted a general area that detailed the floor construction and then claimed that was the only concrete mentioned in the report..and in true CT fashion told me to find any information in the report to dispute his claim. The claim is that FEMA "lied" in the report by stating that the core was built of steel framework and in reality it was reinforced concrete (coated with C4) hense all the "pulverized concrete" that can only be explained by explosives. Well, I have no interest in jumping through that slalom course of hoops by hunting through 460+ pages of the report only to be ignored when posting a response. Soo... I'm wondering if anyone could help me locate information on the materials and construction of the core of the towers?

Of course they are aware that it takes more than a few MIBs to build something like the WTC towers? Were all these construction workers in on it...30 years ago? It's all illogical. Just ignore them and do something you want to do. I'm about ready to give up myself. It's futile...unless you want to resort to violence and man, do I ever.

__________________
You're a coward and a liar and a thOOF - Bart Sibrel

I agree its hopeless for some. If they can't see the absurdity of what is being said,no amount of evidence will sink in.
I guess it just the idea of leaving a particular challenge unanswered that would just puff them up and have it waved around as proof that the "gubment dis-info agents" have no answer for a point brought up by the shining beacons of truth that the CTs are.
I just thought that these CT theories are sooo recycled over and over and over, that the someone could point to an easy to access reference point that documents the construction details of the core....not that it'll help..one of the people who actually supports the all reinforced solid core idea posted 2 pics of the construction. One showed massive steel frame work..I guess steel beams look a lot like concrete to him. Go figger.