More and more I'm coming to the belief that Hollywood is the cause of a lot of the CT problems. A little like, "if it's on the internet it must be true," there seems to be a group that belive that "if it's on TV it must be true."

It sees that with the end of the Cold war, Hollywood has been looking for a new enemy and the US Government has become the stooge. Series like The X-Files, Roswell, Taken, The 4400, and Millenium, and even more well intentioned ones such as Stargate: SG-1, and The Pentender all cast the world as a place with secrets that are kept from the public and where dark forces are at work inside and outside the government, attemptiong to run people's lives for them. While series do this week in and out, many blockbuster movies add to it either directly or indirectly. JFK is a prime example of a movie that directly causes Conspriacism. Others like Enemy of the State, Conspriacy Theories, The Firm, A Few Good Men and even Minority Report merely add to the overall belief in them. More so movies such as Independance Day bloster up belief in govermental cover-ups such as the supposed UFO crash in Roswell. Currently one of the best selling book and now a major movie, The De Vinci Code celebrates the supposed "biggest cover-up in history," accussing the Catholic Church of covering up aspects of Jesus' life all while reinventing history themselves. According to some sources, many of those that have read the book, clearly denoted as fiction, still belive that the events protrayed in it are true and that it is based on the real history.

With this almost constant barrage of Conspriasim and underlying Govermental Threats and/or Cover-ups that we are constantly exposed to through the TV and on our Threate screens and even the books we read, should we really be surprised that so many people are starting to see the real world in the same way as the warped version that Hollywood has been protraying to us for the last 20-30 years?

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Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

I don't know. Maybe to an extend, but I think they're already convinced by that point. I see far more people using movies (not so much TV) as confirmation of their beliefs.

"I feel vindicated that millions of people are finally seeing the 'truth', even if it is a movie."
"All the major directors are Freemasons and they always load movies with symbols of Freemasonry."
"Every work of fiction has some truth to it." (Strictly true, but... news flash: You're not the one who decides what that bit of truth is!)

Crap like that...

For once I am inclined to concur with you, Phantomwolf.
However... don't forget that (would-be) conspirators watch Hollywood movies, too.
Have you ever read Umberto Eco's "Foucault's Pendulum"? What I remember of it is that there is this guy diving into freemasonry, rosicrucians and so on and so forth, constructing a big conspiracy story for himself. And at some point, all these organisations get wind of this, start to think there must be something to this story and start behaving in this conspiratorial way...

Brumsen, in some of your recent posts I have noticed a pattern of attempting somehow to pin at least part of the blame for conspiracism on debunkers. Please elaborate on this.

BTW, although I haven't read it, I just happen to have a copy of Foucault's Pendulum handy (it's my mother's--I remembered that she had it because of the science reference in the title).

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--Doug

"When your statics problem becomes a dynamics problem, you're in trouble." --me

Moor's Law: "As you go from freshman engineering to Ph.D., the amount of work required per credit hour doubles approximately every 18 months." --me, inspired by Prof. Scott Moor

I don't know. Maybe to an extend, but I think they're already convinced by that point.

See this is where differ. I don't think that people are born conspiracy theorists, I believe that they grow that way from the information they are absobing. Today most information is coming via the TV and when that is continually pushing the conspiracy barrow in some shape of form, they grow to think of it as normal and the way the world works.

However... don't forget that (would-be) conspirators watch Hollywood movies, too.

Well first this assumes that there are conspirators out there, and that in the real world most people that end up so aren't just people that fell into doing it over time such as has been the case in the conspiracies that have revelled such as Iran-Contra, Watergate and Enron. I don't believe in the idea of little groups of conspirators sneaking about behind the curtains pulling the strings on the world. Might make for good Hollywood, but in real life it doesn't work. The second problem with the intimation is that if conspirators did actually exist as the CT's claim, then a) they have been about longer that Hollywood has been portarying them and b) no one in their right mind would do a conspiracy the way they do them in Hollywood scripts.

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Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

Partly because Dan Brown includes in the book a page of "facts" which would be better described as "things I've read in conspiracy books".

And don't forget the influence of Capricorn One on the Apollo hoax conspiracy theory.

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"The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head" Terry Pratchett

I did so in (your) "oh no... here we go again" thread. I'm not sure how to elaborate on it. Anyway, I guess that shouldn't be done in this thread, since my previous post here didn't have that tendency at all. Unless I missed something.

Well I stopped reading Dan Brown after I read "Angels and Demons" (I have to admit he IS a good writer though) because despite all the statements where he denotes the book as a work of fiction, he says stuff like this
in his website
SO he seems to suggest that the Illuminati exist in some form.

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Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

Where they promptly slap their logo on the one dollar bill, thus demonstrating the "enormous lengths" they take "to remain covert".

Oddly enough, CBers usually seem to believe that Hollywood is a propaganda
outlet of the GlobalConspiracy™.

They vary however on what it is, that Hollywood is propagandising.

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Join the Illuminati

I did so in (your) "oh no... here we go again" thread. I'm not sure how to elaborate on it. Anyway, I guess that shouldn't be done in this thread, since my previous post here didn't have that tendency at all. Unless I missed something.

It is true that in this case you are discussing a conspiracist actually causing conspiracies, but this put me in mind of your earlier insinuation, which is why I posed the question here.

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--Doug

"When your statics problem becomes a dynamics problem, you're in trouble." --me

Moor's Law: "As you go from freshman engineering to Ph.D., the amount of work required per credit hour doubles approximately every 18 months." --me, inspired by Prof. Scott Moor

Sorry for resurrecting such an old thread, but I'm wondering the same thing really :

There's a whole glut of mainstream TV over many decades - from the obvious X-Files and Dark Skies, to the odd "attempt" in shows like MacGyver and the tongue-in-cheek shows like Stargate-SG1 that take influence, and in turn, reinforce the influence from "conspiracy theories".

Now, most people will watch these shows, and realise that they're entertainment only: lazy-arsed writers drawing from what's in the news that week/month, but as they're repeated years later, and the news that week is forgotten about, the more....shall we say "unbalanced"? members of society will watch, and something in the show will reinforce their "beliefs" of persecution, paranoia...

Or it could even be not so insidious : some time after watching such an "entertainment" show, they read something or see something on the news and it'll trigger a fraction of a memory and "I saw something about that years ago!!! conspiracy and cover-up!"

It seems to me, intentional or not, to be a vicious circle of cause-effect-cause with one feeding off the other and in turn being influenced to create more.

I don't think the general public at large will stop their part in this, and as long as that market exists, Hollywood certainly aren't going to stop either.

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Of those who say nothing, few are silent. - Thomas Neil.

I think Hollywood and TVLand (the fictional place where TV is born, not the Nick-at-night channel) romantisize conspiracy and conspiracy theories; but I wouldn't put the blame on them.

Besides, anyone [unthoughtful] enough to be swayed by fictional media probably would have just as easily been swayed by stupid, unfounded claims from various flashing-text websites and "let me tell you a secret!" books.

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

Heh, what I find most interesting about this thread is that I thought it was a new thread and thought that Brumsen was back and posting again.

Pete

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PJE

There's so much I don't know about astrophysics. I wish I had read that book by that wheelchair guy.

Unrelated to astronomy, but related to TV fiction as fact for some people: I remember when the show Frasier was on, the characters Miles and Daphne finally got married. I saw clips and read interviews where they were each asked by fans how their marriage was going and congratulating them. At first, they thought it was tongue-in-cheek, but they realized a good percentage actually thought they were really married!

So, I think there is a sizeable demographic that takes these things as truth. In my opinion.

CJSF

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Two years ago moved from my town
I was looking up past the city lights
But the city lights got in my way

See the constellation ride across the sky
No cigar, no lady on his arm
Just a guy made of dots and lines

-from "See The Constellation"
by They Might Be Giants

Why shoot the messenger, though? The mainstream media are motivated by profit and market share. They respond to the public's quirks and foibles, and even reinforce same when it furthers their goals. And as these boards show, fantasy is sometimes more palatable than fact.

So why wouldn't they encourage viewers to be simplistic, undemanding, and credulous? It makes their jobs easier next season. Then, encourage the buy-in, that it's more than just some TV show ... it's really real. Now you have them hooked. Then add a show like ET that reports all the entertainment goings-on like they're real important news, and you've created the ultimate contrived reality.

Sure, people buy it. It's too slick to discount.

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I can't WAIT for January 1, 2013 to arrive! Then again, I'm still waiting for October 1, 1993 ...

You'd better BET there's a spoon, Neo! THWACK!!!!

Are the studios responsible to any degree though? Quite a lot of this stuff originates with them. Look at the new TV series of Josh Whedon's "Dollhouse" last year : Some ultra-secret organisation is using people as "actors" by means of literally Brain-washing and programming them to be what's needed - Prostitute; doctor; assassin....

How long until we "see" something like that being touted as a CT by the fringe of society?

lol, there's another one : "Fringe". A group of FBI officers investigating bizarre happenings (Ring any bells?) around the Baltimore/New York area that turns out to be part of something called "The Pattern", involving alternate dimensions and global conspiracy reaching back decades.

There's obviously a market, but how much is just entertainment, and how much is cynical feeding of fears; hopes; delusions and whatnot?

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Of those who say nothing, few are silent. - Thomas Neil.

Guys: Remember what NBC did with Star Trek....they cancelled it because "it is too cerebral" according to lore.....How we gonna sell soap to PhD's??

Since then I have also recalled what happend to me in Vietnam, I got to fly a LTCOL around war zone C while they were clearing out trees with all kinds of heavy equipment, this Officer who was famous later, told me "Son, any theory known to every nut in a trailer park with a mimeograph machine, ain't a plot to take over the world..." (keep in mind that hours of flying in circles leads to boredom and conversation with the pilot and crew...not to mention drinking together in the O club later...)

All to often, these CTer's claim all sorts of fantastic qualities about their subjects, but they can prove it by some sort of secret information...that conradicts their assertions, as has been pointed out here by those smarter than I....I heard Steve Quayle on C2C make the same silly claims recently, and thought" BA would flip out over this", George Noory said exactly that, a millisecond later!!! Must have been a secret plot of some kind!! Proof of synchronicity at least!!

Dale in Ala

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"Ad astra per aspera"

Well, sure they are, but I can't really fault them for being practical.

If market studies show that cerebral is a ratings dog, while Springer and The View are doing great numbers, who am I to say that network execs should be expected to stay the high ground? I don't have to answer to their shareholders.

I wish I knew The Answer. Then again, maybe there is no 'The Answer'. Maybe it's just a sad and hopeless situation.

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I can't WAIT for January 1, 2013 to arrive! Then again, I'm still waiting for October 1, 1993 ...

You'd better BET there's a spoon, Neo! THWACK!!!!

I wonder if the people blaming "Hollywood" for Conspiracy Theories would dislike the video game Deus Ex? One of my favorite games around, but definitely is chock full of conspiracy theories.

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There are few left who
Stare at the skies with wonder
Wishing to know more;
The clouds still drift by above
But the eyes below are blind.
--Laura Lundberg

Check out my writing, maybe.

It may sound harsh but my personal theory on some CTs is that deep down they find the monolithic-cryptic-organization-controls-all conspiracy reassuring. I'm sure they find TV shows that reflect this message reassuring as well. It fits in beautifully with their chosen lifestyle.

After all, believing that due to dark forces, nothing is in their personal control and all ambition is futile, dovetails nicely with still living in their parent's basement at the age of thirty, sitting unshaven in front of a computer screen peddling their narcissistic drivel on the internet at all hours.

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What happens on the event horizon, stays on the event horizon.

Except for the basement part, that actually sounds like me...

On a related subject, I need a shave.

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There are few left who
Stare at the skies with wonder
Wishing to know more;
The clouds still drift by above
But the eyes below are blind.
--Laura Lundberg

Check out my writing, maybe.

Actually, the mental image I had was of the Kevin Smith (Warlock) character in the mindless mayhem movie, Live Free or Diehard. Maybe I'm letting Hollywood do too much of my thinking as well.

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What happens on the event horizon, stays on the event horizon.

I don't think that's harsh at all, I think it's a seductive aspect of the stories that are constructed by the conspiracy promoters. They use the same premises that are the basis of so much successful SF/fantasy literature, from Heinlein to Harry Potter:

Idealistic youth is challenged by Dark Forces (TM). The 'Establishment' is either ignorant of, complicit with, or unwilling to face the enemy. Young hero must face the threat alone, braving grave danger, but emerges triumphant in the end.

Every young guy wants to be Luke Skywalker, no?

On a side note ... I shave daily. I tried to grow a beard once. I looked like a leprechaun.

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I can't WAIT for January 1, 2013 to arrive! Then again, I'm still waiting for October 1, 1993 ...

You'd better BET there's a spoon, Neo! THWACK!!!!

I think that talking about "chosen lifestyle" is going with a generalization and a stereotype. I think that honestly, you can find a conspiracy theorist in almost any occupation, and almost any lifestyle. I mean, even Ebert (I think) stated that he felt that "no one" truly believed that JFK was really killed by Oswald. And take the fact that there are individuals on this forum that run into work mates that also believe in conspiracy theories.

I think that conspiracy theories are seductive to more than the stereotypical "person in the basement" type. I mean, it's a tough pill to swallow that someone like JFK, a President of the United States, could have been laid low by some crazy sniper. And once you accept that the U.S. was willing to do anything to beat out the soviets and also want to feel like you "know" something that most people don't, it's not a long shot towards believing that the moon landings were staged.

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There are few left who
Stare at the skies with wonder
Wishing to know more;
The clouds still drift by above
But the eyes below are blind.
--Laura Lundberg

Check out my writing, maybe.

That was Roger, all right. And boy, did Walter Cronkite have words for him!

Being in the know is always satisfying. Now, some of us choose to do this by actually spending a lot of time reading books, doing independent research, comparing sources, and so forth. Some people hear an idea that appeals to them and run with it. They may think they're doing research, but in practice, they're not. Or at any rate, they're not doing good research, inasmuch as good research leaves you open to the prospect that your idea is wrong.

And Lonewulf, you do not fit that stereotype. You're not thirty!

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

As this thread seems to be active again...

I think a lot of the reason Hollywood turns out so much conspiracy stuff has a great deal to do with the story at hand.

If someone wants to tell a story about some vast conspiracy that affects every person in the country, there are only so many groups large enough to pull it off. You've either got the Government or some Evil Rich Dude. 24 seems to go with the ERD more often, but it's about the only one.

There are few organizations outside a national government that can have the resources to pull off a truly huge conspiracy. I think it basically comes down to the perception that power is evil and the government has the most power, therefore, they have the most evil.

I do think that films and TV have basically beaten this into the ground, but there are a few that break from the trend.

The Osterman Weekend I actually had to watch three times before I was sure who the bad guy really was. It turned out to be one man's revenge but there was a manufactured conspiracy to conceal it.

Who Dares Wins (which I saw as The Final Option) was set in the UK and dealt with an SAS Officer that became part of an Anti-Nuke Terrorist cell. It ended in such a way as to make it clear that there were a handful of people that were simply manipulating others to support their cause.

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I'm not evil.
An evil person would do the things I think up.

Yes, both those films are pretty good, even with their under-lying premise of "bad conspiracy" Although one's more cerebral to the other high-action, I could name quite a few similar films, mixing both "styles".

The Ipcress File; Manchurian Candidate (was I the only one to think the recent remake was awful??); Three Days of the Condor; Pretty much anything by Hitchcock ; The President's Analyst....

those are just off the top of my head. All very well-known films featuring prominently conspiracy.

Microsoft? :P

Large multinational corporations do sometimes "feature" as the bad guys in some CTs...whether real-life, or in fiction...who knows : maybe all these films are intended to pull the fog over the general public's eyes : inure them with CT overload! :P

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Of those who say nothing, few are silent. - Thomas Neil.

If someone wants to tell a story about some vast conspiracy that affects every person in the country, there are only so many groups large enough to pull it off. You've either got the Government or some Evil Rich Dude. 24 seems to go with the ERD more often, but it's about the only one.

There are few organizations outside a national government that can have the resources to pull off a truly huge conspiracy. I think it basically comes down to the perception that power is evil and the government has the most power, therefore, they have the most evil.

And yet, a realistic analysis of the 9/11 attack plot suggests that probably fewer than 100 people (and maybe much less) knew what was going on. The total cost was likely no more than one or two million dollars. That attack directly and indirectly affected everyone in the country in the form of lives lost, economic impact, and security changes.

What's strange is how Hollywood almost always seems to suggest that only Germans or industrialists would be behind such a plot (e.g. "Die Hard" and "Clear and Present Danger").

Agreed on the top part. To nitpick the second bit. Die Hard was about a robbery so only those directly involved were in on it. And they were Dutch. Clear and Present Danger I don't recall a lot about, but can't think of an industrialist involved at all. It was the one about the Colombian drug cartels. I do remember something about a computer being siezed that needed to be hacked though. The password was something like the birth years of the children, reversed, or something. Odd the stuff I retain.

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I'm not evil.
An evil person would do the things I think up.