There is a conspiracy on this "conspiracy theories" forum

[homo_cosmosicus]

I notice that anybody who is really into conspiracy theories, and who thinks
government is involved into various terror attack in this country (USA)
is not welcomed, and often being "attacked", and that attack sometimes
resembles attack of organized group who start attacking such poster,
calling him/her names, until they chase away freethinker/conspiracy expert.

I think there is conspiracy here, on this "conspiracy theories" forum,
most of the old members just pretend something, in fact they radiculate
us who know something and have ideas, theories, how, what, why
govt. was involved... In other words, you are not allowed to post anything
what might seem to be "antigovernment"... but remember, our constitution
is about "We, the People..." not about "government".
Government should serve people, not the opposite.

What do you think, is there conspiracy on this forum?

[R.A.F.]

Originally Posted by homo_cosmosicus

...you are not allowed to post anything
what might seem to be "antigovernment"...

Read the rules of this board!! You will find that "political discussions" are simply NOT ALLOWED here.

What is so hard to understand about that???

...but remember, our constitution
is about "We, the People..." not about "government".
Government should serve people, not the opposite.

What in the heck are you talking about???

What do you think, is there conspiracy on this forum?

I think that there are folks who don't particularly appreciate the structured nature of this forum, (it makes it difficult for them to "do the CT rant"), and will cry foul at the slightest provocation...

...my advice? Get over yourself...

[JimTKirk]

The only thing anyone on this board attacks is unsubstantiated rumors or conspiracies. This being a scientific board means we expect something to back up what is said. People here are not attacked, but the ideas that have no support are. If you post something, please read the rules as we follow them.

[N C More]

Originally Posted by homo_cosmosicus

I notice that anybody who is really into conspiracy theories, and who thinks
government is involved into various terror attack in this country (USA)
is not welcomed, and often being "attacked", and that attack sometimes
resembles attack of organized group who start attacking such poster,
calling him/her names, until they chase away freethinker/conspiracy expert.

Please forward any posts where people are attacked and called names to the moderators, this is against the rules here.

I think there is conspiracy here, on this "conspiracy theories" forum,
most of the old members just pretend something, in fact they radiculate
us who know something and have ideas, theories, how, what, why
govt. was involved...

On the BAUT bulletin board all posters are required to support their arguments with scientific facts and sound evidence. BAUT is a science site. Also, please define the word, "radiculate", I'm not sure if I'm following your train of thought.

In other words, you are not allowed to post anything
what might seem to be "antigovernment"... but remember, our constitution
is about "We, the People..." not about "government".
Government should serve people, not the opposite.

Political discussion is discouraged on this bulletin board. Please refer to the board's rules.

What do you think, is there conspiracy on this forum?

No.

[Infinity Watcher]

Quite frankly? No I don't ad hominem attacks are explicitly forbbidden by the rules, if you feel someone has insulted you you can report them to the mods. Ideas however are fair game. The thing people on this forum will ask for is evidence, and there are a number of engineers, physicists and so forth who know a lot about their respective fields, for some, such as JayUtah we even have evidence as to their credentials when they make a claim in their area of expertise you know that they are speaking as someone who knows what they're talking about so if you suggest a conspiracy theory the response will be: okay you've made a claim, now prove it and dodging quetions as to you're idea will not win you many friends, you posted it on a discussion board, it will now be discussed.

People here will then, if they see a fault in your reasoning tell you precisely what it is, you can then choose to either explain why such a reasoning is not at fault, providing evidence for it or explaining about how a logical leap is valid in the circumstances or you can if you can not support your claim you can then withdraw it, ideas here are held to the same standard as a scientific idea would be, on this board people deal in facts not opinions.

Secondly I'd like to point out that people here have seen just about every conspiracy theory you can dream of and a few that you probably can't and seeing the same ones over and over again with the same "evidence" that has been repeatedly shown to be irrelevant does start to grate a bit so people do occasonally get terse but as I mentioned earlier if it actually extends to a personal attack report to the mods, thats what they're there for.


Thirdly and I'm going to tread carefully here because of the no politics rules but there are people on this board who have no particular love for the american governement as it currently stands and might prefer say the democrats to the republicans to be in power, some are not even american, but these people are not convinced by the "evidence" provided by CTs.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and assume you're referring to the 9/11 conspiracy theories
The thing is it has been repeatedly shown by people who are qualified to judge that the collapse of the WTC towers bore no real resemblance to a controlled demolition and in fact fell in the way that would be expected for a building that had had a large plane with more fuel in it than was anticipated by the architects crash into it and was then subject to a large fire. The thing is sometimes it really feels like no one is listening when this evidence is pointed out and that can get irritating so when you (this is you in the general sense not you personally) are the Xth hundredth person to use an arguement especially if that arguement has a number of logical fallacies people may start getting somewhat terse (to risk gong back on myself here)

Edited for spelling and to clarify the final sentence

[PhantomWolf]

Personally I think that if you want to claim that the guy who has now several times told the Muslim world he organised it, and send the ones that did it, didn't actally do it, you're going to have to pony up the proof, and "I saw it and it looked to me like CD" doesn't cut the mustard (or even the cheese.)

[SpitfireIX]

I notice that anybody who is really into conspiracy theories, and who thinks government is involved into various terror attack in this country (USA) is not welcomed, and often being "attacked", and that attack sometimes resembles attack of organized group who start attacking such poster, calling him/her names, until they chase away freethinker/conspiracy expert.

You are welcome to present any real evidence that you have for any of your theories. You are welcome to debate honestly and openly about your theories. You are welcome to ask as many serious questions as you wish about any aspects of the generally accepted versions of events.

You are not welcome merely to proclaim the existence of various conspiracies or make other extraordinary claims without presenting any real evidence for them, however. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and most posters here, including me, expect such.

As for attacking those who proclaim conspiracies, there are two major issues. The first is that, in the collective experience of those here, conspiracists tend to follow highly predictable behavior patterns. Every couple of months on average, an advocate of one or more conspiracy theories shows up here and begins proclaiming his or her views. Invariably, most or all of the "evidence" presented in support of such claims is demonstrably inaccurate, misinterpreted, or irrelevant, and has often already been thoroughly debunked. This naturally leads to an attitude among many of the regular posters here of "oh, no--here we go again." Further, many conspiracists demonstrate an almost religious fervor in their devotion to their theories, and, in our experience, no amount of evidence will convince them that their theories are wrong, because they simply refuse to be convinced. They tend to ignore or minimize much of the evidence presented that tends to disprove their claims, and often focus only on arguing peripheral points they think they can win. This naturally leads many people here to expect the worst from new posters who advocate conspiracies. Possibly you feel that you are being unfairly tarred with the same brush, but if so, the blame rests primarily with the many other conspiracists who've ruined it for all conspiracists.

Second, whether you realize it or not, when you make unfounded accusations of conspiracies, you are slandering those whom you falsely accuse, either directly or indirectly, of involvement in such conspiracies, and some people, myself included, tend to get angry about that.

One other point. I have never seen anyone who could even remotely be considered a conspiracy "expert" chased away. We only have one bona fide conspiracy expert, JayUtah, and even he is not an expert on all, or even the majority of, conspiracy theories (unless you've been holding out on us, Jay ). We have some other people who are highly knowlegeable about certain conspiracies--whether any of them can truly be classified as experts is debatable.

I think there is conspiracy here, on this "conspiracy theories" forum, most of the old members just pretend something, in fact they radiculate us who know something and have ideas, theories, how, what, why govt. was involved.

Yes, there is a "conspiracy" here. There is a "conspiracy" to expose ill-founded ideas and confused thinking, and to hold the purveyors of such accountable. If you think you have some real evidence for your theories, by all means present it. Don't be surprised if it's thoroughly demolished, though, because that's what invariably happens.

In other words, you are not allowed to post anything what might seem to be "antigovernment"... but remember, our constitution is about "We, the People..." not about "government".
Government should serve people, not the opposite.

As noted, political statements and discussion are generally highly discouraged here. As for "antigovernment" statements, being unwelcome, I and many others here are firmly of the opinion that conspiracism is counterproductive and discourages responsible citizenship. Why should people bother to vote if "they" have already predetermined the outcome of the election? Why speak out if the Men in Black might come and take you away? Also, when conspiracists attack the Government for groundless reasons, they distract attention from legitimate criticism, and make it less likely that those with real complaints will be taken seriously by the Goverment, the media, or their fellow citizens.

[edit: omitted word]

[sts60]

In other words, you are not allowed to post anything what might seem to be "antigovernment"

Which is why posters like brumsen and turbonium have been banned... oh, wait a minute, they haven't been, have they?

This forum isn't a mutual support society for conspiracy "theorists"; it's a skeptic forum populated by people who collectively have a lot of relevant knowledge and experience. If you want to claim such-and-such happened, or didn't happen, you'd better be prepared for a critical examination of those claims, and you'd better have more than a regurgitation of conspiracist websites with which to back them up.

[jrkeller]

Originally Posted by homo_cosmosicus

I think there is conspiracy here, on this "conspiracy theories" forum,
most of the old members just pretend something, in fact they radiculate
us who know something and have ideas, theories, how, what, why
govt. was involved.

Hey someone finally figured it out. There is a conspiracy here. It is a conspiracy of people who demand proof, not innuendoes, not feelings, not there is a fuzzy dot on this photograph so it must be conspiracy, not the government lied about something, so it always lies and not personal agendas.

It is conspiracy of people who believe dozens of eyewitnesses and not a fuzzy video image, who believe in science like the First Law of Thermodynamics works, who believe in mathematics, who know the internet does contain the answer to everything, who believe experts in their field, and who admit to being wrong when presented with facts.

As an "old-timer" on this board, let me give you a few examples of past CT experiences.

Four years ago, we had a poster, who was not banned, named Cosmic Dave who believed the moon landings were hoaxed. He has a website about it. He told us a lot of things, but one of things that stuck out on my mind was that the cameras would get too hot. I challenged him on that point and asked for a thermal analysis to prove it. He said he would, but I'm still waiting four years later.

We've got several 9/11CTs who have been telling us that thermite brought the WTC not an aircraft. They have told us that it takes 762.5 kg or 1681 lbs to melt one column and there are 44 columns. Of course this amount assumes perfect combustion, but since Steven Jones has found traces of thermite that would mean that the combustion wasn't perfect and that brings up the mass. Let's see 44 colums multiplied by 1681 lbs give almost 74, 000 lbs of thermite. Then's there the wires, detonators. All that was done in three buildings (WTCS 1,2,7) with over 200 tons of material, done in 8 1/2 months and no one ever noticed. BTW, just so you know, thermite website has about a half dozen errors, which bump up the mass to about double.

[ToSeek]

Originally Posted by homo_cosmosicus

I notice that anybody who is really into conspiracy theories, and who thinks
government is involved into various terror attack in this country (USA)
is not welcomed, and often being "attacked", and that attack sometimes
resembles attack of organized group who start attacking such poster,
calling him/her names, until they chase away freethinker/conspiracy expert.

Name-calling is explicitly banned on this forum. If you think you are being called names, then you are free to report those posts to the moderators, and we will deal with them. But we don't often act pre-emptively. (I for one don't even visit this area unless obliged to do so.)

[sts60]

Let's also not forget the history on this board of "mainstream" supporters getting banned for failure to abide by the board rules. How often on a conspiracist website is anyone who buys into their viewpoint banned for lack of civility or other non-viewpoint offenses?

[Donnie B.]

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

...This naturally leads to an attitude among many of the regular posters here of "oh, no--here we go again."

Funny thing. My reaction is often closer to, "Oh, goodie -- here we go again."

[JayUtah]

I notice that anybody who is really into conspiracy theories, and who thinks
government is involved into various terror attack in this country (USA)
is not welcomed...

Well, those are two different things. There are plenty of people who question the government -- as they should -- without being "really into conspiracy theories". The latter usually indicates a fairly uncritical approach to claims of any nature, governmental or otherwise.

...and often being "attacked"

No, we don't attack people. We challenge ideas as a means of testing whether belief in them is justified.

...calling him/her names, until they chase away freethinker/conspiracy expert.

No, we don't engage in name-calling. What we do here is loosely termed "critical thinking," and it involves using objective methods of evaulating claims. If anyone here is "chased away" it's usually because he realizes that we are tougher nuts to crack than the typical loose-minded conspiracy nut. We actually ask questions that have to do with fact rather than innuendo, and we tend to be highly trained in the sciences that apply to the questions. Most conspiracists expect approval and encouragement. They're generally only happy where people don't question their beliefs.

As for "free thinking", you'll find we're open to most anything. But we do, sadly, draw the line between fantasy and reality. "Free thinking" is, too often, make-believe expected to be taken commensurately with fact. Sorry, but you actually need more than imagination in order to discover truth.

...most of the old members just pretend something

Um, many of the members here are very highly qualified in their fields, many of which bear on the theories being discussed. Just because the typical conspiracy theorist doesn't understand the explanations given doesn't make those explanations false.

...who know something and have ideas, theories...

If you claim to know something you'll be asked to demonstrate that knowledge. Unfortunately too many conspiracists are accustomed claiming knowledge they don't have, in order to impress gullible readers, and then finding ways to evade questioning by people with legitimate expertise.

If you have an idea or a theory, it is welcome. What is not welcome are propositions which are merely ideas or theories, and which are being put forward as if they were fact. Ideas are tested here. The strength with which you propose something is the strength with which it will be tested. Something labled "just a theory" will be considered as "just a theory". Instead we often find that we're accused of blindness or closed-mindedness for not accepting a theory as immediately valid, when in fact we may have provided good reasons not to believe it and those reasons have gone unrecognized.

In other words, you are not allowed to post anything what might seem to be "antigovernment"...

Hogwash.

You aren't allowed to have political discussions, but you are allowed to present and defend theories that question acts of government officials. What you're not allowed to post here are baseless claims or logically and factually bankrupt arguments.

What do you think, is there conspiracy on this forum?

Yes, there is a conspiracy to put ideas to the test according to our best knowledge of the relevant fields and our best ability to reason dispassionately.

[Gillianren]

Originally Posted by N C More

On the BAUT bulletin board all posters are required to support their arguments with scientific facts and sound evidence. BAUT is a science site. Also, please define the word, "radiculate", I'm not sure if I'm following your train of thought.

I believe it's intended to mean "ridicule."

I think it's ironic that someone who told us that we don't respect anything is now claiming to have been needlessly personally attacked.

Actually, brief review will show that we sometimes regret not having conspiracy theorists around, and conversation in this particular area gets a little slow without them. However, what I think we all want is an articulate debater with new ideas. Doesn't happen, though.

[Ara Pacis]

I think that "conspiracy" generally means a secret collusion. This forum is not secret, thus no conspiracy. Sorry guys, you're Resistance Debunkers, not Anti-conspiracy Conspirators.

[PhantomWolf]

freethinker

In my experience a "freethinker" tends to be someone that has read a bunch of websites expounding a certian political belief that matches the individuals who then swallows them hook line and sinker without any actual thought.

us who know something and have ideas, theories, how, what, why
govt. was involved...

If you want to prove that OBL was lying last month (and a few times previous to that) and that the US did it themselves, fine, go for. But remember that the ultimate word here is PROVE. This means that you are expectd to bring hard cold facts and evidence to the table, susposition, feelings and "this looked funny." If you make a claim here, you are expected to back it up with more thant handwaving, bad pseudosciense, quoting websites and speculation.

In other words, you are not allowed to post anything
what might seem to be "antigovernment"...

No, you aren't allowed to post personal attacks or political statments, totally different. Besides, you seem to be assuming that everyone here is Pro-US Government, this couldn't be further from the truth. Many of us aren't Americans for a start and many that are, aren't supporters of the current Administration, it just we can't post our political feelings either. Personally, as a non-american I have a lot of contempt for the current US Administration in 99% of it's policies (About the only widely publised one I support is the return to the Moon, while my opinions on Iraq and GW's intelligence would get me banned quicker than skidding on black ice for both Ad Homimen attack and political posting.) I also have little respect for previous Administrations Foriegn Policies and the way they have often treated other countries, including my own. Again, delveing too far down that road will result in nasty warnings though, so I'm going to end it there. Most people here that know me know my political leanings on the matter, so I'm not planning to voice them further against the rules. I do know that many here have similar feelings though. Just because we support the conclusion of the inquiry, doesn't mean we support the ones that called for it, nor entirely the way it was done, or the result of it it all. Just that from the evidence we have seen from both sides, the weight of real support falls on the offical story side while the other largely consists of political motive, bad assumptions, pseudoscience and a lot of handwaving. If you want to change that, by all means go for it, but do it with real and hard evidence, not misunderstandings, CT website quotes, political rants and handwaving.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Originally Posted by N C More

Also, please define the word, "radiculate", I'm not sure if I'm following your train of thought.

He won't. Notice how every other word in his post is spelled correctly. It was an obvious attempt to bait someone into ridiculing him about his spelling, thereby proving his point.