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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 18-March-2002, 08:21 PM
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JayUtah JayUtah is offline
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It takes more power to decelerate than it does to merely hover.

Absolutely, especially with all that fuel mass.

There's an optimal curve of engine power / fuel consumption.

Yes, and when you're trying to minimize your fuel load you find and fly that optimal curve.

there was a "no-abort interval" during the LM descent. ... My question is, was this true, and if so, why?

Yes, it's true.

A staged abort is where the descent motor is turned off, the thrust is allowed to decay to zero (to prevent recontact at jettison), the descent stage is jettisoned, and the ascent motor is fired to effect an ascent.

As soon as the descent engine is cut off, any upward thrust ceases. The spacecraft immediately begins to acquire downward velocity at 5.37 fps per second. The staging of the LM is not an instantaneous event, and every second that the LM is in free fall is an additional 5.37 fps that must be arrested and reversed by the ascent motor. Even if the LM were hovering, with no downward velocity, there is an altitude at which it would be too low to effect the staging before it hit the ground.

It is not so much a technical limitation as it is a physics limitation. Pilots face these kinds of limitations all the time. The "dead zone" of the LM is not unlike the decision altitude when landing a conventional aircraft. To land, you must fly low and slow. There is an altitude below which the airplane will not be able to pick up speed and climb before it hits the ground. So when you drop below that altitude you are committed to the landing -- for good or ill.

Having a more powerful ascent engine, or some faster physical means of separating the stages, would reduce, but not eliminate the dead zone. Every craft has an operational "envelope" -- safe boundaries on the parameters by which it operates -- and you have to learn them and avoid passing outside of them.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 18-March-2002, 10:40 PM
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Donnie B. Donnie B. is offline
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Yes, agreed. Of course, the possibility of a complete engine failure without any warning was small, especially as the engine was burning for quite some time before they got down to that dead zone.

Also, as I understand it, the descent stage engine was just about a simple as a throttleable rocket motor could be. Less to go wrong.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 19-March-2002, 02:46 PM
 
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<a name="20020319.9:36"> page 20020319.9:36 aka RED Orange
On 2002-03-17 21:50, JayUtah wrote:
Well done, B.A. <pre>
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: Ver March 1, 2002 : [i] II [i] *

in all Five(5) Primaries [i] [i] local{PDX} BBS's
RED Republician / / 1 591 5103 music
ORANGE Libertarian //^\ //^\ 2 591 5695 Mac
YELLOW Pacific //===\ //===\ 3 977 2942 DOW
GREEN Green // \ // \ 4 256 8451 E-M
BLUE DemoCratic [i] [i] [i] [i] * 5 236 4218 DOS

[i] [i] [i] [i] [IIII] ' [IIII] [IIII] [i] [i]
|| || || || || \ || \ || || ||
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hub@hubert.rain.com

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Bad Astronomer on 2002-03-17 22:08 ]</font>
[/quote] it takes a lot of lines to do "PAID" so thanks for the memory
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 19-March-2002, 09:20 PM
Peter B Peter B is offline
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Just a little technical question here:

JayUtah said (in part): "...the rate of change in descent rate (the second derivative)..."

You have:

Displacement;
Speed, which is change in displacement over time; and
Acceleration, which is change in speed over time.

What's the term for a change in acceleration over time?
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 19-March-2002, 09:26 PM
Andrew Andrew is offline
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I beleive it's called Jolt. Or Jerk.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 19-March-2002, 11:14 PM
amstrad amstrad is offline
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Quote:
On 2002-03-19 17:26, Andrew wrote:
I beleive it's called Jolt. Or Jerk.
it may sound funny, but this is correct.

What is the term used for the third derivative of position?
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