When the wind of Katrina subsided I went on my roof to survey the damage. My area had not flooded yet. While up there I witnessed a series of explosions that came from the direction of the lower 9th ward and the sound delay lead me to believe that it was in the neighborhood of the industrial canal about two miles away. I suspected that an oil storage or warehouse with something explosive had gone off due to the storm. within the hour the flood-water came to my area. The next day the report on the radio was that a sulphur plant, much farther down river than I had thought the explosions had been, had exploded. It sounded fishey that with the reportedly bad communication in the area they came up with the diagnosis that they so quickly determined that that was what the explosions were but I accepted that at that time.

As people from the lower 9th ward who had not evacuated before the storm made there way out of the flooded area many were saying "They blew up the levees". I didn't give their statements much credence as I thought that they may have put the explosions together with the flood and came to that conclusion with too little information. A little over a week later I met a friend of mine who lives 3 blocks from the industrial canal near the line that I saw the explosions had been on and 6 blocks from the largest levee breach. He was also out after the storm had passed and before the flood and said that the explosions were so close to him that the musroom clouds went up right over his head. Minutes later the flood came in his area. He also bought into the story of the sulphur plant explosion.

Neither of us knew then exactly where the breaches had occured. I have since studied various aspects of the situation.

Here are the facts:

The largest breach of all the breaches is the one on the New Orleans 9th ward side of the of the The Industrial Canal.

Almost directly opposite on the other side of the canal is a smaller breach where that barge went through.

The the breaches on the other canals occured within blocks of the lake.

The breaches on the industrial canal in the lower 9th ward occured several miles from the lake'

The Industrial Canal levees are the strongest levees that breached.

None of the other levees of that type in the city breached.

The explosions I witnessed were not one large one with smaller secondaries like most industrial explosions. They were a rapid fire succession of equally sized explosions.

I compared the line upon which I had witnessed the explosions the night of the storm with the breach and the lower 9th ward breach falls directly on that line.

The police and military were most agressive and beligerant with regard to people in that area.

The curfew was maintained in that area for the longest time after the storm.

Although that area of the city was flooded as much as any other and was the poorest and had nothing to loot, "protection against looters" was the reason given.

Although much of the city is still a virtual ghost town, the 9th ward area is currently the most deserted and still has the most police and military interfereance with the people trying to return there including arrest and secret imprisonment without charge or trial. I got a four and a half month taste of that myself.

The 9th ward area has the witnesses to the explosions and the flooding immediately afterwards.

In the earliest video of the breaches you can see a radial pattern of levee wall debris in the canal at the ends of the largest breach. The repairs have since removed and/or covered up that debris.

All the other breaches show levee debris only on the outside of the canals.

There is a military base named Jackson Barracks 4 blocks from the breach where the barge went through and there is a coast guard base near the breach on the 9th ward side.

The Jackson Barracks side is predominantly white and the 9th ward side id predominantly black.

Enough facts, now for some speculation.

Why would they do it?

Let's say that that barge battered down the levee on the Jackson Barracks side of the canal first.

Someone with explosives on the Jackson Barracks side blows the levee on the 9th ward side to minimize flooding on the Jackson Barracks side. It was a quick job with little chain of command authority and they used too much explosive. They blew a large breach in the levee but the flood water didn't wash all of the explosion debris out of the canal so it can be seen.

Afterwards the military desired to cover up their culpability and created a bizzare, unconstitutional police state here in New Orleans that still exists here. Just in case you are wondering why "it's taking so long to recover".

um... the explosions are possible... I would like to see a lot more evidence before I believe that

"Afterwards the military desired to cover up their culpability and created a bizzare, unconstitutional police state here in New Orleans that still exists here."

Take my word for it, and all the other people unrelated to me who I'm sure you've heard be fore, the explosions happened.




Have you ever seen them do what they did here either in a combat zone or another disaster area? Things like going around to homes that were not even flooded to make sure there were no people there and spray painting those "Skull and cross bones" on them to note that they had been checked. Sure we know now what those symbols meant but many here at the time didn't and combine that with the rumors that they were spreading of poision in the water and many were terrorized by this.

They were constantly brandishing their m-16s at us like we were Taliban and telling us to leave, even those of us, like me, who were prepared with food and water like they tell us to be.

They are opposing the witnesses return to that area, scattered them all over the country in the evacuations, arrested thousands of them including me, transported them to prisons all over the country, kept where they sent us secret when the media asked and continue to hold many without hearing, lawer, phone call or any other rights just like the Guantanimo Bay inmates and for nearly 25 percent as long now. One certain result of this is that the witnesses haven't been able to get together to confer about what we witnessed.

Looks like a consciousness of guilt to me.

whats the pointy of posting all this rubbish ???

__________________
'The eye can only see what the mind is prepared to accept'

Yes, in the documentary of the Hurricanes in Florida.

Thats because there were people, unlike you, who when they came in to help, started shooting at them. They weren't done looting yet. I'm not talking searching for food and water, I'm talking big screen tv's, electronics and basically anything they could get their hands on. Happens in EVERY disaster. The National Gaurd had shoot to kill orders after the 1966 Topeka Tornado, your's is not the first. It's always the actions of a few that tarnish the bravery and humanity of the many.

Yeah? Well the ACLU is looking for you. Just give em a call. If you have any proof you'll be a very rich person indeed.

I have a hard time sending money to repair a place that is a continously worsening problem without fixing the problem. Repairing the levee or even buildin it up a tad isn't going to save your ever sinking city. I'm not willing to put a bandaid on a cut jugular and call it good. New Orleans needs to be rethought. We need the portage, we'd like the party town, nobody needs the vast amounts of poverty.

I really hope it all gets figured out. It would be nice if all the good aspects of New Orleans can be preserved and any bad aspects elliminated. But such is the dream of all mankind. But heres a little rub for ya. We had those floods back in 93 in my area. Somebody upstream decided to win the love of his woman back by dynamiting a levee and overnight the water got to about 100 yards from my house. Now we have the original levee AND a new levee that just got completed a full mile to mile and a half away from the river. They still get to use the land for farming, and there are a couple of businesses that are down in that area, but most everyone was moved out so the new levee can protect us all from a 500 year flood. A mile and a half from the river and we're not sinking below river level here. I'm thinkin a real fix to just your levee problem down there is going to be staggering.

Dunno, sounds like a typical CT rant with a "whoas me, I got locked up" twist. The secret imprisonment's a real hoot, considering we're hearing about it right now. Guess I'll go out front and watch for black sedans.

Radial debris patterns? Ever consider that when a wall is breached, the water pours through the weakest part of the fracture and punches through? There's your radial pattern, simple physics at work. A series of small, rapid fire explosions sounds more like a structure fracturing than a scuttling charge. The levees would break from water pressure from the bottom up, given that the greatest pressure is exerted against the bottom (except in a barge strike). Given that the city had sunk a foot since installation, and that the levees were inappropriately designed in the footings, its more likely the breaches occurred where the ground sank the most. Guess where that would happen?

1) Within a few blocks of the entry point, where saturation from the primary body of water would have done the most to undermine the soil bearing capacity of the surrounding ground.

2) Any point in the city where an excessive amount of soil compression had occurred during construction in the city. If it breached in an industrial area? Sounds right, the constant repaving, the movement of large trucks over the pavement, and massive building foundations and slabs would work with the water table to create a local depression in the soil. The point in the 9th ward where the first break occurred rolled snake eyes first.

Not this tripe again...

__________________
You're a coward and a liar and a thOOF - Bart Sibrel

The looting was not as bad as the police chief military and media made it out to be at the time. The Governor has admitted this. Did you see Spike Lee's "When The Levees Broke: A Requiem"?

I heard rumors that people were shooting at police. I heard rumors that a helicoptor had killed some people on the interstate that were shooting at it. I have seen reports to this effect as part the documentaries of Katrina. I have seen no follow up that usually happens when the story is examined on these rumors, like who got shot, who shot them, where they were shot etc.

I have seen no further reports, pictures or follow up on the "sulphur plant explosion" either.

Captain Swoop,

How dare you call this rubbish? Sure, it didn't make you uncomfortable but it made me uncomfortable and I'm a little miffed. What? Is it because this "Conspiracy Theory" is one that has significant support? It surely has enough to warrent a better investigation than has so far been conducted.

This is the "Conspiricy Theory" forum isn't it?

Doodler,

Levee colapse could cause explosive noises but is not acompanied by the flashes of light which I saw and the glowing mushroom clouds that my friend saw.

You missed also the point where I wrote the "radial pattern of levee wall debris in the canal". The debris can be seen in the canal not where the "simple physics" of the water should have pushed it out.

You're hearing about the secret imprisonments now? A year later? Characterizing this as a "Black Sedan" conspiricy theory is...well I really don't know what to call it.

What is tripe anyway? It's kind of related to rubbish isn't it? Something from somewhere unmentionable that the british eat isn't it? Both words are often used by the british. I bet you both are british.

Sorry if this reads unfriendly. It's meant in a friendly way. Or at least in a humorous way.

Mr Clean,

The ACLU did get involved. If not for them I and many others would still be in prison without any rights. They got a local judge to order us to be released on December 7 2005. But the district attourney appealed that order to the state supreme court which denied the appeal but granted more time to charge or release us by January 7 2006. But the district attorney appealed that order to the 5th circut federal court. That appeal was denied and the federal court not only ordered our release but ordered it to be acomplished by 5:PM on january 7 2006. I was not released for another 5 weeks after the deadline and there are still people locked up and being locked up without trial. The police, who are supposed to take their orders from the courts, surely didn't want a big media splash by releasing us all at once as the court had ordered. The ACLU is trying but secrecy is hindering them and "lost in the system" is one excuse being used for some people not being released.

Really working good for you then are they? Not enough evidence to win you any money yet though huh?

Tripe is made from the stomach of some domesticated animals like Sheep, Bovine, etc. Here's the wikipdeia ref link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripe

From what you've said they cleared out your neighborhood and you succesfully hid from them till they caught you? I suppose they could have just let you go on your word. Then again, it doesn't sound like you co-operated from day one. If Katrina had maintained level 5 intensity and hit New Orleans directly. Then we wouldn't have to here about the pieces that failed, it all would have been gone. And yes, I saw Spikes piece of rubbish. Sure made Nagin look like superman. What was that I heard him talking about on the tube how there were women and young girls being raped and murdered in the Superdome only to find out that there were NO accounts of such activity after folks finally were taken out of that place. If anything I think I would take from Katrina that you can't wait on the government to save you, you gonna have to help yourself. Your governor and mayor didn't get enough people out before the storm and it was a hell of a mess to get folks out afterwards. I'd hate to have to leave all my stuff and walk out of here, but without food, water, power and the hopes for it for months, I'd pack up a douffle and move the family to safety.

No doubt we'll here from time to time of the trials and tribulations of New Orleans, but I'm bettin the CT section of this forum is about as far as it gets.

Oh, and although you didn't have coverage the rest of us did. Your levees failed, they were gonna, they did and you all suffered. It was hell watching them try to plug it up and watch it just get worse. I've shoveled sandbags before and it's heartbreaking when no matter what you do, it's just not enough. But like Quint says, you lose one ya rig another. I'd like to think the time bought by my shoveling bags of sand helped someone get their important things to high ground. No conspiracy needed for a failure that was predicted, warned about, funded for a fix and the money funneled somewhere else and finally came about.

The TV networks were reporting every rumor they heard at that time. The first report I heard was police in a helicopter had to shoot 5 or 6 looters who were shooting at the helicopter. About half an hour later, the report changed and the networks said a "tragic mistake" had taken place and that police in the helicopter had shot and killed a group of Corp of Engineer workers. About an hour later the networks reported that nothing had happened. They said all of the previous information was just rumors.

It's difficult to tell what really happened. It was too big of an event, covering such a large area, with not enough TV people and reporters in every location.

I used to cover Levee Board meetings in New Orleans back in the early '60s. They used to always talk about "the big one" that might someday hit the city. They always knew this could happen. The Levees were never strong enough for this type of storm.

I used to drive by houses that had their backs up to the 17th St. Canal. I would drive over the Canal on Veterans Boulevard, and I always noticed that the water in the Canal was at a level above the rooftops of those houses.

I covered a hurricane aftermath there in '65. The Industrial Canal was breeched then too and the 9th Ward was flooded then too.

Well, SAMU was somewhere where he couldn't get on line, because there's a big hole in his posting history here between August 2005 and February 2006.

Fred

__________________
"For shame, gentlemen, pack your evidence a little better against another time."
-- John Dryden, "The Vindication of The Duke of Guise" 1684

Can I offer an altenate to a conspiracy on this. My understanding is NO is actually like a bowl, and the levees keep flood water etc out.

With the falling rain etc etc. And the subsidence of the flood surge. Could there be a situation where there was more water inside the bowl than outside?

I've done some research on looting as well and I was in LA at the time of the Rodney King Riot. That looting ended after about 3 days. The looting I witnessed here (what little there was given that averything was flooded) ended after 3 days and my research on looting indicates that it rarely lasts more than 3 day.

The reson for that is simple. There's nothing left to loot and here the loot taken did not help the looters survive with no food or water.

Still, even thought thay knew as well as I did that the looting had stopped, the people were mostly gone and there was nothing left to loot, the police and military continued to treat all the residents like we all were dangerous looters for weeks that I witnessed before I was arrested.

The disaster wrought by the storm was bad enough but the conduct of the police and military was something you probably would have to have experienced yourself to understand how bad it was.

We were all speculating on what had really happened that we didn't know about to make them so bad. The pressure to leave was so bad it was like "Close Encounters Of the Third Kind". Some of the speculations were that the military was really expecting aliens to come here. I speculated that some military thing had gotten damaged during the storm and thay wanted to get everybody out before they went in to mess around with it. It was that bad. Even after I was arrested I knew that they were making senseless arrests for months afterwards because some of the arrestees were brought to the prison where I was. By senseless I'll give the following example although I could give many. There was a crew of about 50 latinos from Texas brought in for looting a month and a half after the storm. They were really brought in by a buisness owner who had them cleaning up Canal St. A main street in downtown New Orleans. The buisnessman must have had some kind of pull because he was able to get them all released in a couple of days. Then there was a crew that I got to know well as they were locked up for a long time. They were repairing some buildings owned by a cop. Ehen they demanded their money the cop arrested them and accused them of looting. No charge and no trial but imprisonment just the same.

Thank You!!!

SAMU

Nope. I didn't hide a bit. I kept a lamp with citranella oil burning on my balcony to keep away the mosquitos in the heat of the summer and was the last light on my street for weeks. I had the brightest flashlight in town and shined it out into the street whenever I thought I heard a prowler. I never did but I did catch some airborne personel moving down the side street (the black's neighborhood) one night. Every cop, military and media that passed my house would have seen me. I was even interviewed several times. I have an above ground swimming pool which survived and didn't flood that about 30 people on my block were swimming in for 9 days after the storm to keep cool until the chlorine ran out. Then I advised them to evacuate and they did. (That's a story in itself). I was asked to evacuate a hundred times a day, ileagally at gunpoint, but I told them that I was ok, I had three 5 gallon jugs of water enough food for two months and enough dry refried beans to last for 6 months. I had to sign papers at least a dozen times over the month that I was there that I was taking responsability for myself, I didn't ask them for anything and I told them as many others did "I'm not leaving". I think that phrase made it out in the media.

Oh, they knew I was here. They waited untill I was alone to arrest me. They had no intrest in taking my word or even hearing my word. They wanted me, OUT

Thank you. That's the first I've heard about that since the initial rumor.
But the police and military used that as an excuse for their agression and beligerance for months afterwards and to a lesser extant still are. I even have suspicions about those kids that were killed that was the city's excuse for bringing the national guard back in. They are still here, by the way.

I was just a kid when Betsy hit and flooded the 9th ward but it was not as bad or last as long as it did this time and the levees have been built up better than they were at that time.

Not to say that the breaches couldn't have been caused by the storm. The levees on the canals that breached near the lake are much more flimsily built than the indusrial canal's levees now are. However, there is substantial evidence that something else may have caused the breaches in the industrial canal levees. There is consistant testimoney regarding explosions and the flooding immediately afterwards in that area from widely unrelated people and the police and military had that beligerant attitude that did tend to be focused on that area even though the flood had ruined the loot in that area and most of the looting went on in lesser flooded areas and ended after 3 days by any account. (At least the looting by civilians had ended)

To be fair, the military persued the "you gotta get out" line more as something they were ordered to do and didn't neccesarily agree with. The police had the real agressive, hostile, beligerant and dangerous attitude. They were the ones pointing their guns. The military merely had there guns "at the ready", with fingers on the trigger and only ocasionally pointed them at me. If you saw the Spike Lee film it shows that when their general came to town he acted surprised and ordered his military on the scene "Guns down, guns down!!! That must have been for the cameras because the military continued to keep their fingers on the triggers and occasionally pointed them at me.

We had the national guard on the streets during a police strike years ago but then they kept their guns slung.