Congrats. That's exactly where the "white is smoke" people identify the 757 as well, so you're at least not alone with apparently seeing something overthere.

It's blatently obvious after you spot it, I can't look at that photo without seeing it now. Of course those that aren't interested in seeing it won't because it isn't in perfect lighting and focus, so they dismiss it, but when you know what you're looking for, it stands out like a sore thumb, or an elephant playing the tuba.

__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

I suppose that does add a complication.

Still, it shows how an aircraft can cause damage in a concrete structure.

I'll admit, all I know of from the 747 crash came from the show "Seconds From Disaster".
I don't know how well recieved it is here, but it seems to be fairly good on science.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

I've never seen an elephant playing the tuba. Therefore, it is obvious they are perfectly able to pass by unnoticed, and indeed do so all the time as not a single time they fell out of their role of doing in unnoticed.

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

Did SFD mention anything about a possible strange cargo (weapon chemicals or nuclear material)?

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

I just read this article and started wondering.
http://www.physics911.net/georgenelson.htm
I don't know if theyve found parts with serial numbers that matched flight 77 or not but wouldn't the government tell us about matching serial numbers to stop the contoversy?
Some of you guys say you're authorities on these matters. Does this guy know what he's talking about?
(excerpt)
David I've removed all your cut and paste material. Please just summarize the material in your own words. Then post a link. If one is interested, one may choose to go to the link. If you want to post an excerpt, please make it only one or two sentences.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I find it very troubling. If I never mention this again, are you guys just going to forget about it and act as if this weren't an issue? That's the feeling I get from you guys. Real objective truth-seekers would take this very seriously and try to find out about the serial numbers. Do you think I'm whacky for thinking this?

I maintain that this photo of the nose of the craft that hit the Pentagon is proof that 9/11 was an inside job (unless it's been doctored) but you guys keep dismissing it in favour of the witnesses and the parts found.
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon...dodvideos.html
There are alternative explanations for both of those pieces of evidence so they are mere evidence--not proof.
That's a classic fallacy in the field of logic. There's an analogy used to describe that fallacy. If somebody tells me "Maple trees lose their leaves in the winter. Therefore, all trees lose their leaves in the winter.", and then gives one hundred examples of trees that lose their leaves in the winter as proof, those one hundred trees mean nothing if an example of a tree that doesn't lose its leaves in the winter is produced. All of that mere evidence falls by the wayside. If a piece of proof is produced, all mere evidence that has alternative explanations falls by the wayside. Evidently one of the alternative explanations is true. That picture should be taken much more seiously than witnesses or parts found as people can lie and parts can be planted before the crash. You guys seem to have a pre-formed conclusion so you steer away from what doesn't lead to your pre-formed conclusion. This is much more obvious than you seem to realize.
You guys are avoiding the issue of the serial numbers and you're much less than objective about the picture of the front of the craft that hit the Pentagon. I can only try to imagine why.

Concerning the crash in Amsterdam-

It says here that two of the engines on the same side of the craft fell off.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_1862
I think this article probably reflects reality as it fits the picture.
http://thewebfairy.com/nerdcities/Pe...er/bijlmer.htm
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rampwiers2.jpg
I don't see where the wings hit the side of the building.

That's all the time I have for now. I'll try to do some more this weekend.

As if THAT would convince you and close the case for you. If anything can be a lie, than it's saying "we checked it, and the numbers match".

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

Agreed more or less, but let's not forget that the ordinary fire was a kerosene fed offcie building fire, and previous to that there was an enormously high impact crash. But still, yeah, finding some serials here and there is a possibility.

When was the last time a private guy was allowed to come onto a crime scene?

Though he forgot to add this report is incorrect.

If showing the events on CNN can be considered hiding potential evidence from the public view, than I fully agree.

Which is quite a strong argument indeed.

yet the white vague thingy is proof? yeah right.

__________________
To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

No, it didn't.

I assume it wasn't considered important to the crash investigation.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

We dismiss the photo because there are also alternatives to it.
That, and that the alternative you present to planted evidence are not a realistic senerio, not to mention that it fails Occam's Razor.

I see that instead of given your own thoughts on the comparison of the Amsterdam 747 crash and that of Flight 77, you merely give links. How typical.


You speak of wanting proof. You must have ignored me when I related this:
In the case of Flight 77, the scientific discipline involved is forensics.
Therefore, the statement applies, and should be considered, by you.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

As usual, and per EVERY debate David is in, it is HIS evidence no matter how vague that is real evidence. All other evidence, even evidence that strongly contradicts his theory, is mere evidence so it doesn't count.

Or something like that.

That's exactly the impression I'm getting.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

But there is no controversy other than on some lame CT websites. Have any of them bothered to file a FOIA request for that information?

Again, just because they didn't have a press conference to announce it, doesn't mean they didn't find and match up serial numbers. There's so much other evidence that there was no public doubt at the time which plane crashed into the pentagon, so there was no need for the government to publicly confirm it over and over. Why don't you file a FOIA request for that info instead of just assuming it doesn't exist?

I imagine that if David C filed a FOIA request for that info, he might find that he was wrong in his assumptions, and that his view of 9/11 might be wrong.

That, or he doesn't trust the govt, thinking that he'll just get planted information.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

They don't file a FOIA request for the same reason there wasn't one filed for the gas station and hotel videos until this year. It is easier to whine about not having the info and implying there is a coverup than to actually do some work and get the info.

__________________
"Eternal vigilance is the price of supremacy"
------------Mark Twain

"Women are like Voltron. The more you can hook up, the better it gets."

I thought I had addressed this. . . Oh, yeah... I did.

(You can use the link to go back to that post and answer my questions.)

__________________
Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Isaac Asimov

You didn't cite your source.

That's never stopped you.

__________________
"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

Surely Jim doesn't mind being held to a higher standard than David C, right?

Besides, I'd like to see that source myself.

My impromptu Google search turned up a lot of references to an FBI report from April 2002 on the subject of the hijackings, but none of them seemed to link to the original source of the statement.

The only statements I could find for April 2002 on fbi.gov were unrelated to 9/11, except for a simple listing of which hijackers were on which flights.

If Jim's claiming that the FBI released another statement about AA77, I for one would love to see that claim backed up with evidence. Ideally, the FBI's original statement will include evidence to back up their own claims.

I was curious about the April 2002 FBI report too, so I went searching around the internet. I couldn't find it (I would be curious too Jim), but I found this piece in the Washington Post archive (even the link is only to part of it - you have to pay for the rest)


Washington Post, 9/22/01
Now, I'll guess that David C will just dismiss all of this (sorry David if that is not true), but one of the interesting points to me is that this was a crime scene and in fact, this is still an open criminal investigation. Last I checked, neither the FBI nor local police departments release detailed information about open criminal investigations - I get that much from watching TV. Why should this case be different, and how is that "proof" of anything.

__________________
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One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
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In David C's defense, he does cite sources for certain claims.

The sources just happen to be CT sites most of the time.

What claims he makes that don't have sources are his speculations.

What doesn't stop him is lack of evidence.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

OK, so... either...

1) The photo is real and undoctored and "clearly" shows an F-4 (or F-111, or some other random plane), and is therefore proof of U.S. government involvement in 9/11, or...

2) The photo is doctored and "clearly" shows an F-4 (or F-111, or some other random plane), and is therefore proof of... what? U.S. government involvement in 9/11?

Maybe the word I'm searching for is credible...

__________________
"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

Don't forget the third option:

3) The interpretation of the photo is wrong. The white blob is smoke being trailed by a 757, whose engine struct a light pole on it's way to crash into the Pentagon. The 757 itself is indistinct, because of how fast it was traveling, which was beyond the resolution of the traffic cam.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

Of course!... why would they have doctored the photo if they weren't involved? Duh!

__________________
Relight the Firefly!

"It is quite clear that Occam's razor does not sharpen in your pyramid." (Nicolas)

"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." (Paul Simon)

I'm not familiar with standard investigative procedures in situations like this. I just read this article and started wondering.
http://www.physics911.net/georgenelson.htm
With all of the accusations of a conspiracy, wouldn't the government release info such as matching serial numbers to help difuse the problem?

Lack of evidence? There's building 7, there's the fact that the towers fell down symmetrically, there's the fact that no big plane parts were found near the flight 93 crash site
http://www.physics911.net/georgenelson.htm
(excerpt)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most of these time-change parts, whether hydraulic flight surface actuators , pumps, landing gears, engines or engine components, are virtually indestructible. It would be impossible for an ordinary fire resulting from an airplane crash to destroy or obliterate all of those critical time-change parts or their serial numbers. I repeat, impossible.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and there's this photo.
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon...dodvideos.html
You guys can play this down all you want but it's not going to go away.

If the photo hasn't been doctored, it's obviously not a 757 and the government planned and carried out 9/11. There's already other proof of that such as building 7 and the other stuff I listed above.
If the photo has been doctored by the government to make a 757 nose look like a fighter nose, the only thing I can think of is that it's some kind of psy-op such as the one hypothesized here.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles...giantpsyop.htm

I don't consider this one at all. The the upper part of the object is illuminated by the sun and the bottom is shady. The shadow line is exactly where it should be. What are the chances of a blur being exactly like a picture which is is consistent with its environment? Also, the picture is not blurry at all. It's very clear.
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon...dodvideos.html
According to that YouTube analyisis the first picture in this sequence is a 757.
http://0911.site.voila.fr/index3.htm
A 757 doesn't fit in the space. A 757 is twice as long as the Pentagon is high. The nose would be visible--it wouldn't be behind the box. Whatever is behind the box is about 60 or 70 feet long. I was asked to show my calculations on this a while back. Calculations are only necessary when it's so close that conclusions like that can't be arrived at just by looking at it. If the size difference is one hundred percent, it's so obvious that calculations aren't necessary. If anyone thinks I'm wrong about this, do the calculations and show them.

do the calculations yourself if you're so sure. don't expect anyone else to do your work for you.

Is smoke incapable of having a sunlit part and a shady part?

__________________
"Eternal vigilance is the price of supremacy"
------------Mark Twain

"Women are like Voltron. The more you can hook up, the better it gets."

Considering you are a layman, and not an investigator, I'm not surprised.
Perhaps it would behove you to read on how investigations are preformed.

What would the point be? What difference would it make to general public if the serial numbers were released? Even if they did release the numbers, the claim by CTers could be the same as yours concerning physical evidence; that it's planted.

What about building 7?
As for the towers falling symmetrically, so what? Given that the building weighed over 500,000 tons, and no stong loads were put on them as they fell, their internia would make them go straight down.
But I have to ask; did you ever see a photo of the top section of the building that shows it toppling?
And who said that no big debris were found at the crash of Flight 93? Are you also going to ignore witnesses and phone calls from the passengers on that plane as well?

So, you have to be right in your assumption? Is that what you are saying? That whatever crashed into the Pentagon can not be a 757, no matter what?

I'm not going to explain the fallicy of your logic, because it has been mentioned already, and yet you ignored it.
You are absolutely convinced that yours and the view of other conspiracy theorists is the correct view, despite anything to the contrary.

Why are you here then, if you won't sway your view? You're not going to convince anyone here to agree with you.

Also, you ignore questions put to you.

I'll just repeat one of mine now:

Why do you not believe terrorists might have been responisble?

Oh, and answer this without links. I want your own thoughts and no one elses.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

Speaking of calcuations.
David, I still await your answer.
Was the plane 200m away from the camera and is it only the nose that we see?

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our animal welfare board and organisation

No big plane parts of flight 93?
What about these...
http://www.911myths.com/assets/image...P200062-11.jpg
http://www.911myths.com/assets/image...P200061-11.jpg
http://www.911myths.com/assets/image...P200060-11.jpg
http://www.911myths.com/assets/image...P200065-11.jpg
http://www.911myths.com/assets/image...P200066-11.jpg

Besides, what would you expect happens with an airliner that impact the ground almost vertically at full speed?
Forget that question, I guess I already know the answer...

__________________
"Who does not know anything, must believe everything."
Baroness Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach 1830-1916
our animal welfare board and organisation

Ooh! I know the answer! Those could have all been planted!

__________________
"Eternal vigilance is the price of supremacy"
------------Mark Twain

"Women are like Voltron. The more you can hook up, the better it gets."