Welcome Neverfly.

I can understand where you are coming from, but as Tinaa stated, we need to refute even the dumbest things for people that might just drop in and read the thread, not because we think that David C. will ever have a rational thought. As to science and math, I think the closest a lot of CT's have ever gotten to them was when they accidently walked into a bookstore. They seem to be the anathma of the CT. I'd suggest it was to do with education, but some of them are well educated and still seem unable to do basic science and math correctly.

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Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

Could someone please help me!?
How do you call that yellow box in the picture David always uses.
I know its purpose I just lack the English term for it.

__________________
"Who does not know anything, must believe everything."
Baroness Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach 1830-1916
our animal welfare board and organisation

I think it's called a selection, Laguna2. That's the only "technical" term I can think of. Other than that, it's just a box.


Neverfly, I offer greetings.
David C has a long history of this same style of arguements. And not only did he practice it here, but also with the Moon Hoax theory (both on this board, and on the original 'Loose Change' forum).

As mentioned, the conversations are meant to educate everyone that reads it, not just the users.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

Oh good grief. So, everybody in Arlington is in on the conspiracy now. All 200,000 of us.

It never ceases to amaze me how all these conspiracy people seem to know what happened by simply looking at a bunch of small photos and blurry videos on the internet, while choosing to completely ignore the stories of the thousands of people (including myself) that were actually there.

The one that's blocking the plane? I live in America and I'm not even sure. Heh.

yellow box- i cant even tell whats a PLANE in that picture much less a box- Several people have said welcome- i havent ever seen a post that people Thank the greetings so maybe its irregular to do that?
but id feel pretty rude if i didnt. so to all with the welcomes - Thanks
incidently.. is it Possible to get Drunk on Turkey?
i feel so lightheaded...

Drunk on turkey? Depends how old it is...

Seeing a plane in that picture should be rather difficult as the picture is really blurry and if it is there the view on it should/could be blocked by the yellow selector box.

BTW. I am done with the numbers. Looks bad for David. In a distance of 250m the box blocks a space 40m wide.
Enough for a 46m 757-200 coming in at an angle. I am just setting up the final document. It Should be done by tonight.

__________________
"Who does not know anything, must believe everything."
Baroness Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach 1830-1916
our animal welfare board and organisation

it Already looked bad..
this will sound AWFUL but does a person really NEED numbers to say the photo is too blurry to tell what much is in it...it says positive things to take the time to Scrutinize meager evidence however...
The Numbers simply illistrate the REASON the photo is blurry and the Relative SIZE of what MAY BE in it.
personally if i look at that picture one more time im going to scream :P


and i dont check the dates on what i eat- if i did that id go hungry


its almost scary to see food lables that print the date that you might expire

Well, actually, yes. I mean we can pretty much all sgree that the photo is too blurry to idetify anything other than ground, sky, Pentagon, yellow box thing, and white stuff. But it's still open to interpretation. Having the numbers out there, and allowing others to see, and check them, is needed to firmly establish what it may or may not be.

The main issue at hand was that DavidC was making the claim that the plane was too long to fit behind the box. It was therefore his responsibility to show, with numbers, that that was the case. Once the numbers were out there, we could check them, then accept or reject them based on the rules of mathmatics. He was unable/unwilling to do this, so Laguna opted to do it for him. I'm sure DavidC will find some fault with the calculations and claim it all to be a lie, or state that Laguna is confusing the issue by making it too complex for the average person to understand, butthe truth is, if we know the sixe of the box, and it's distance from the camera, everything else is simple trigonometry.

Personally, I'd like to see an example of the aircraft DavidC claims is in the photo that has a vertical stabilizer that tall. Since A Globalhawk has NO vertical stabilizer above the fuselage, it would seem to rule it out. Of all of the other planes listed as possibilities, none of them have one that matches the image on the screen.

__________________
I'm not evil.
An evil person would do the things I think up.

I'm sure the trade guys have a name for it. I'd call it the gate motor housing, in that it houses the motor that works the gate for that lane. Or you can just call it Bob. I also think 'yellow box' has a nice ring to it.

__________________
You're a coward and a liar and a thOOF - Bart Sibrel

I will translate it brutal from german to "Access Control System Column" or will refer to it in short as ACSC. The first column, on the right, is the one where you have to identify yourself so that the gate mounted on coloumn #2 (the left one) would open. For me it looks like the other camera (that captured the white blob) was mounted inside the right coloumn to give the security guy a closer look inside the standing car.

If David wants to counter my findings he will have do it by using the same way I did: by using maths. If he is not capable to understand it, this would not be my problem as he was the one who asked for it. It am keeping it simple enough. I use mainly Phytagoras, the law of sines and the law of tangent so everybody with at least a basic grasp of trigonometry should get along with that.
All other rants beside those using maths can be dismissed from that point on.

__________________
"Who does not know anything, must believe everything."
Baroness Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach 1830-1916
our animal welfare board and organisation

Well, David C has been asking for numbers, saying that he doesn't remember enough of the relevent maths to come to a solution. I think it only fair that Laugana2 provide the solution, and thus also offer a bit of education to the rest of us, such as people like me that haven't even taken trig.

Many of us, including myself, have said that the picture is blurry, but David C insists that it isn't. No numbers can seemingly convince him otherwise, nor can descriptions of the functions of a traffic cam.
He's sold on that white blob, the smoking coming from the engine. He ignores the object in front of it, which very much is blurry.

I should warn you that you will see that image many times to come.



I know the feeling.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

Yes- i spoke too soon there. The thought surfaced of beating a dead horse. I waxed more on a psychological level than a scientific one on that one.
But it Does point out why the issue remains...the Closing of a case and i think its more than Fair of another person to step up and do the math...

Heres the basic reason i got Stuck on this Forum.
im learning a lot. HEH even from the lil quotes people have.

In the interest of this thread, the readers and participants and politeness, I am taking a page from the ATM section. Here are seven, although there are many more, questions that David C have not answered. David C, before posting anymore videos, CT sites, etc., please take the time to answer these seven questions to the best of your ability. "I don't know", "I don't understand please clarify," or "I need a little more time" are acceptable answers. You will have a week to answer these questions. Do not start another thread on this same issue or I will close it. Do not post any "new" stuff on this thread or I will close it until you PM me that you are ready to answer the questions. Please include Laguna2's mathematical analysis he will post later today. Other Members please do not ask David C any questions until he has answered the questions listed below and Laguna2's painstaking analysis.

1. Why do you not believe that terrorists were responsible or capable of carrying out the events of 9/11?

2. Please explain the mechanics and dynamics involved in a "planting operation" that plants evidence either immediately before or immediately after the crash, which takes into account the known laws of physics, lack of time-travel and personal invisibility, lack of witness accounts, and the fact that in your beloved video, there are no personnel on the lawn, nor are there any parts or body pieces on the lawn, ruling out pre-planting of any kind. Please also explain the dynamics of planting biological evidence inside the burning wreck of the Pentagon in the immediate seconds after the crash, using the above criteria and takes into account the heat and difficulty of navigating the wreckage. Stealthy extraction is also a necessity. Again, as usual, please apply Occam's Razor to your answer.

3. Please explain why scientifically peer-reviewed evidence is immediately and always unreliable, but anonymous you-tube and woo-woo videos are gospel truth.

4. Please explain Steven Jones' continuing credibility in this area.

5. Demonstrate, in your opinion, why the structural damage to the Pentagon should be consistent with the structural damage to the Twin Towers.

6. Demonstrate rumormill.coms credentials and why they are a valid source of evidence.

7. You have stated the photo you use has been doctored. Please explain why it is still usable as evidence, when undoctored photos have been dismissed by you as "doctored" or "planted". Please explain why the standards of evidence should not work both ways.

__________________
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

Do you learn something from my quotes in my signature? Just curious.

We'll really see where things lay when Mr. C returns from his banning, and answers the questions that our good and overworked moderator has posted.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

Finally, I am done.
You can find the paper here.
If someone sees an error, please leave a message so I can correct it.
This does only include such errors involving math.
If someone (like Gillianren ) might find an error in the used language, please keep in mind my location indicated in the upper right corner of this post.
I did my very best.

__________________
"Who does not know anything, must believe everything."
Baroness Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach 1830-1916
our animal welfare board and organisation

Smoothvirus,
Welcome to the 911 jungle. I (and I suspect others here) would love to hear any personal accounts of 9/11 that you wish to share. Personal stories might influence some of the CTers in ways that facts and science can not.

__________________
At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

Come on, he lives in Arlington so he is into the conpiracy.
How much do they pay you Smoothvirus? As much as us professional Debunkers?

__________________
"Who does not know anything, must believe everything."
Baroness Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach 1830-1916
our animal welfare board and organisation

Good page Laguna2.

__________________
I'm not evil.
An evil person would do the things I think up.

The learning comes from understanding greater nature than what i have Currently Achieved.
My statement earlier is a good example. I considered it a Beating of a Dead Horse. However others pointed out that the Bulldog technique served a purpose i didnt think of- OTHERS comming in at an odd time- may find answers on the Last page of a thread even when they Missed the FIFTY same answers on the page before.
Understanding the Wisdom to Discern Truth. Knowing WHEN to talk and when to hold your tongue. Where i stand now (and ALL people) is Somewhere on a road... i can stay here OR i can Learn and Move Forward.
This is a Good example of Someone Sitting in the road- i think we all know what he will do according to his track record(surprise us!?!? ooooh the suspense!)

History Teaches us the things we have not yet experienced. i already snagged one of your quotes...:P
Thats called Standing on the Shoulders Of Giants.
when my own wisdom falls short i can fall upon that of others..(mine falls short quite often:P )
i LOVE the Plaid Comet one.... i wish i had seen that converstaion- i wonder if its related to Spaceballs (they've gone to PLAID!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laguna2 Finally, I am done. You can find the paper here. If someone sees an error, please leave a message so I can correct it. This does only include such errors involving math. If someone (like Gillianren ) might find an error in the used language, please keep in mind my location indicated in the upper right corner of this post. I did my very best.

Excellent, Laguna2. One question, though--how did you arrive at a 35-degree angle. Mike Wilson's model shows it's about 45 degrees, (of course, that would still make the plane fit behind the pillar).

__________________
--Doug

"When your statics problem becomes a dynamics problem, you're in trouble." --me

Moor's Law: "As you go from freshman engineering to Ph.D., the amount of work required per credit hour doubles approximately every 18 months." --me, inspired by Prof. Scott Moor

Excellent work!

I imagine it would be rather hard to rebute solid calculations.

BTW, I now saw that box you referred to, the one that hid the plane from view.
I always thought you meant the picture with the box that outlined where the plane was.

Anyway, it should be interesting to see the response to your work.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

Very good paper.

As for Corrections: (and only because you ask)

You have a final "o" in two instances of the word "Pentagon" in the third picture.

Below the 757 spec sheet. "look on the flight" should read "look at the flight "

picture #4 for the term "l_p" length is spelled wrong

next paragraph after picture #4 "angled under that it is seen" might be changed to "angle from which it is seen by the camera"

__________________
"Man has always found it easier to sacrifice his life than learn the multiplication table." - Somerset Maugham

this is totally off the wall but...
i was in the main area looking at the Conspiracy theory Thread list
this thread has the most replies and a Whopping 23,000+ Views
The next competetor is the Canadian twist 911
Apparently this is the hot topic.
as regards to where i was wrong earlier- it seems a LOT of people are interested in this issue and HOPEFULLY the answers seen in these threads is helping people resolve these answers.
Looked at Laguna's (i support Cloud Strife) Numbers on the photos and you can call people liars
you can call the government a liar
But MATH just Dont LIE!!!
so Thanks to Laguna for providing that clarity and taking the Time To do that..... Since somehow i dont see David C for saying Hey Thanks! ... at least you got a thank you out of it..
(if i can JUST FIgure out how to get on the payroll as a Government Conspiracy Worker -ill give you a kick back though )

I assumed the impact angle to be 45 degrees like Mike Wilson did in his model.
It derives from the missing light poles.
The 35 degrees are between the flight path and the direction of view from the cameras position.

__________________
"Who does not know anything, must believe everything."
Baroness Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach 1830-1916
our animal welfare board and organisation

You have to read my post more carefully. What I said was:
But thank you anyway. I will correct it as soon as I find the time to do so.

EDIT: Done. But... The Pentagono is not my failure. That picture is from Google Earth, I did not set those markers.

__________________
"Who does not know anything, must believe everything."
Baroness Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach 1830-1916
our animal welfare board and organisation

Watch out for the black limousines with the dark windows in front of your house. They will provide the necessary application papers.

__________________
"Who does not know anything, must believe everything."
Baroness Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach 1830-1916
our animal welfare board and organisation

thats IT?! you just sit and wait on them?
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
i wait on roller coasters
i wait on pizza
but waiting on THAT i think is beyond me- i guess ill just keep working my job...

There has been some concern that this thread has gotten political. I suspect it was discussion of the US Government being incompetent in a particular situation that triggered some ire. Lets be more careful please.

My read is that the comment was suggesting that mdbapa was not calling the US government incompetent across the board so much as implying that its seeming poor choice in this case had a motive behind it. Still, people will react to things you imply and you should be careful... and as far as posting here is concerned, be especially careful around the topics of religion and politics (which means the 19 angry muslims comment was also a bit risky - "nineteen angry extremists" might have been a better choice).

No warnings here.

__________________
Forming opinions as we speak

Shoot, it was barely tolerable to wait on the van that was to take me to the MEPs when I left for shipped out to boot camp!

Our friend is unbanned now. I eagerly await to see a response to Laguana's calculations.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah