I really do not find any of this very interesting.

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Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out. ---Cardinal Wolsey (1475-1530)

I don't recall mentioning you claiming it was fact, either. In fact, my only comments to facts have been your nearly complete inability to provide any. You DO claim it, however, which opens your statements to critique. If such causes you anguish of any kind, as indicated by the condescending and sometimes sarcastic nature of your posts, you may want to re-think wether you are posting in the right board.


Again, yes, you ARE assuming it is a UFO. And, again, by all accounts, it was identified. None of the identifications are "alien". Once the object is identified, it ceases to be a UFO. This is fundamental to this discussion and you simply must come to understand this. "Why else would the Air Force send it to NASA?" Who else better than NASA to confirm thier suspicion - that it's a Russian satellite, which, in fact, NASA confirmed.


This does not indicate the object was difficult to identify.

Niether does this.

I don't see the discrepency in this statement. NASA did not track it. They were, however, subsequently asked to give identification to the fragments found. They were able to positively ID it. I don't see the problem.


What makes you thing fragments couldn't be important enough to conceal? Have you read all of the posts in this thread? To save me from beating yet another dead horse on this issue, please refer to the several "Cold War" posts. They explain, perfectly clearly and reasonably, exactly why even fragments of a Russian satelite could need to be concealed.


No evidence they can currently find, yeah. I'm with you here - I would LOVE to know the nature of the satellite remains they found, and the story of what lead to it's identification. But I don't see how this necessarily leads one to claim foul play.

Not true, read Eburacum45's post above. I'll quote it for you here, for your convenience:

"It is believed an explosion (perhaps during ignition for insertion of the spacecraft into a Venus transfer orbit) damaged the platform, resulting in at least six additional fragments (designated 65-094C - H). The damaged spacecraft remained in orbit for 16 days and reentered the Earth's atmosphere on 9 December 1965."

This is from NASA's own website ;-)

Additionally, again, from Eburacum45's post above, the eyewitness testimony is not only at best shaky, but largely appears to be made up long after the fact. Again, I shall quote his post for your convenience:

"But no one in 1965 reported armed troops occupying the town, an acorn in the woods, or an armed military convoy. Not Pittsburgh TV crews; not the Greensburg paper which reported every rumor including scuttlebut in the crowd of "little green men" and even had the location on the wrong farm a half mile away; not John Murphy who didn't known the Army from the Air Force when he saw them and who's first UFO was broadcast was about a burning pile of wood at the Norvelt Golf Course."

I'm starting to get the feeling you aren't reading all of the posts, due to your so missing the Cold War explanation of USA-Soviet secrecy needs and the Eburacum45's post, which explains NASA's position on tracking the satellite and the unreliabitlity of the "eyewitness" accounts.

Can you provide any evidence that a large, acorn shaped UFO was recovered? So far, you have presented none. Indeed, ALL of the available evidence points to fragments.

Evidence, please, of a "screw job". And, I want cites as well.

I'll give you this one, and I agree with you. Unless, or until, NASA or the Air Force finds the appropriate documents or the fragments, outside of generalities it is impossible to know anything specific.


We've already been over the trap of "ifs" in this case. If they recovered a flying reigndeer, it could prove Santa Claus exists. And there's just as much evidence they recovered a flying reigndeer as there is they recovered an alien object of any kind.

The eyewitness accounts in this case have already had their accounts tarnished to the point they are no longer evidenciary. And are you SURE you want to state that EVERY one says that?


Because that's all that was recovered.

Who knows? It would have made ID easier, for certain, but Russian writing isn't necessarily needed. What does that have to do with anything?

Possible, yes. Probable, no. But a great many things are technically "possible". It really depends on what degree of absurdity you choose to begin discarding them. Well, that and having evidence to suggest it.

You would be wrong for the reasons above. It doesn't prove they might have been there. It suggests that it's a (remote) possibility they might have been there. Unless you have evidence you have yet presented, we certainly DON'T know, nor is it suggested in anything you have provided so far, that NASA had ANY part in it's discovery. We only know they had a part in it's identification.

This statement is unclear, but it appears you would suggest that NASA could not identify an ET object given only fragments of the object. What could possibly lead you to this conclusion?

You are wise to question this, given that there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest it was.

Actually, no, it does not "beg the question". This is a demonstrable flaw in your logic. For it to actually "beg the question", it must have been previously established as fact that a large object was found and taken from the crash site, and that there were objects found there which NASA was not asked to examine. Niether has been established thusfar. At best, both are assumptions. At worst, pure speculation with no evidence to support it.

As established above, you are most likely the only person who places any stock in the "eyewitness" accounts.



Does this suggest anything to you?

I agree.

No, I'm not getting it, so far. But I can't phrase it any better than Gillian, so I'll let her reply speak for me as well.

Just to recap:

The Air Force recovers fragments from of a man-made origin. They appear to be from a satellite. The Air Force takes the fragments to NASA for expert confirmation. It is given. The Air Force, for reasons unknown, determines it is in the best interests of the nation, at the time, not to release details of the satellite's recovery. They put out a story claiming a "meteor". Project BlueBook sends three agents to investigate. They find it's a Russion satellite, not a UFO, and report such back to Project Bluebook. NASA told to keep mum on findings. NASA says "Ok, whatever", and goes back to working on sending men to the moon. Citizens, long after the fact, begin to claim to be "eyewitnesses". Their accounts are largely debunked. 40 years later, it is deemed no longer an interest to national security to keep mum on the story, so NASA says "Meh, it was actually a Russian satellite", and, once again, goes back to working on sending people to the moon. Consipiracy theorists have a joygasm with story, as conspiracy theorists usually do, mixing baseless speculation, wild fantasy, while cherrypicking "facts" and ignoring (completely) any evidence that shoots down thier ficion.

Actually, the object did NOT crash, as we know. The site has been examined by scientists and found not to have an impact crater or any of the other signs of a hard landing by a large object.

Indeed.

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

Should note to clear up confusion that a "crash" site consisting of damaged trees, crater, et al is generally the result of a self-cohesive object the size of a car or larger. Smaller fragments are slowed by air resistance and fall to Earth roughly in the same way they would if dropped from a plane.

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

I stand off to the side, wondering how on Earth you manage to ignore every relevant point in my entire post, including the question you asked in my response, which you seem to be unaware I'd already answered in context.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Indeed. He doesn't appear to be listening to anyone. Every single point he's made has either been completely debunked, or at least shown to have a reasonable explanation that does not require a conspiracy.

That he's not listening to any of the evidence given to him is why I shan't be posting in this thread any longer. It takes time to type those responses, being careful to adress all of his points, and it's looking to be a colossal waste of my time, to date.

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

Or the result of a bunch of people with no regard to the surroundings digging up the ground looking for something that is unknown to them.

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

LOL I lied - at least 1 more post for me

This morning, coincidentally, at 11:00 Eastern (American), on the History Channel, will be a show about the Kecksburg "UFO". I don't know if it's the same one as the Sci-Fi channel, but if there's anything interesting, I'll report back

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

...I noticed that...fact is you are obsessed by a closed case.

Which is why I'm not participating...there is really nothing to discuss...

Why not post about a sighting that has some "mystery" about it??...Kecksburg does not...

Okay. Halfway through the show. So far:

Only interviewing "UFOlogists" and "eye-witnesses".

Standard stuff - "MiB" bullying an eyewitness into silence, the State Troopers - NOT the military, NOT NASA, state "nothing found" - so I guess within a day of the "crash" the whole State of Pennsylvania was also in on the "conspiracy", although, to be fair, they did mention that it was much later before any "eyewitnesses" began to claim testimony, and they've spent alot of time showing different "witnesses" arguing wether it was the Army or the Air Force at the site. The "witnesses" aren't doing themselves any favors so far in the show.

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

Is this the standard History Channel woo show with Stanton Friedman ?

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

Honestly, it might be, but I don't know, because I stopped paying attention shortly after I posted, and instead opened up the NWN Toolset and worked on my module It was so ridiculously one-sided, it really reminded me of the FOX Apollo Hoax "documentary". I heard something or other about a meteor, and I heard something about Mrs. Keane's "smoking gun" is that the tree-tops all pointed in the direction of the crash site (how she knows that, or what that actually means, I don't know). But it was very biased, and they were pretty shameless in what they were willing to present. It was very woo woo, though, so I'd guess it's the same show

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

It might mean that they all mysteriously lean in the same direction as the prevailing winds.

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

Doesn't matter. People not familar with the sky in general can mistake objects for a number of things.
Venus, for instance, is visible in early evening and has been mistaken for a UFO many times.

Is that supposed to show that it wasn't a sattilite?

I suggest re-reading earlier posts about why military personal were there.
Pay close attention to the stuff on Cold War mentality.

Or are you pulling a Moon Man on us?

I like this recap better.

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I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid...and I went ahead anyway. - Crow T. Robot

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

I will not be happy that we know the facts in this case until some agreement has been reached between the two contradictory NASA statements. There is your mystery;
to state it again,
Nicholas Johnson of NASA has calculated that any object landing at Kecksburg could not have been Kosmos96, or any other man-made satellite he was aware of.
While NASA spokesperson Dave Steitz said that 'fragments' of an object had been recovered, and were determined to be of Russian origin; those fragments, and/or the paperwork that went with them, are now lost.

A real mystery, to give nothingbutme his due.
We won't have a solution to this unless one or the other is shown to have been mistaken. But there is no indication that either of them was lying.

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