Well if that doesn't prove that they used them, I don't know what will.

Obviously the UN are in on it.

Tell her you are moonlighting, translating Harlequin Romances......

How come YOU Germans sheeple get a paycheck and WE Venezuelans don't?

I haven't been paid in over two years!

Time to make a conspiracy theory

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Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

How come YOU Germans sheeple get a paycheck and WE Venezuelans don't?

Because in the UN your President called Bush the devil?

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Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

So? if we are tools of the Evil Illuminati/Templar/NWO/Reptile Overlord Shadow Goverment we must get paid despite the in-turn lackeys

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Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

No, thats just german bureaucracy and thoroughness.
The BND has a good human resources department.

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"Who does not know anything, must believe everything."
Baroness Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach 1830-1916

Maybe diabetes is caused by more than one thing. I'm just a layman but if the medical community sees a statistical link and can't explain it right away, don't they do a study to see if there is anything to it? Aren't they conservative if they see a statistical link even if they don't understand the cause right away.
I don't think you guys are using the "Scientific method". You're coming to conclusions based on only intuition.

http://school.discovery.com/sciencef...ficmethod.html

Aren't the conditions different. DU munitions get pulverized into dust. Again, wouldn't a study have to be done?

So are you saying that a statistical link means nothing. I think a study is in order.

What credentials do you have? I have none but I always thought that a study was in order in cases like this before statements like that could be made.

If doctors are worried about it, it's not something to take lightly.

Tell me something that she said that makes you think she's incompetent. She sounds like she's being very careful not to be dogmatic.

When I posted those links, my intention was just to share the info and start a discussion. I know I haven't been answering all of your questions but I'm a bit busy now and don't have a lot of time to devote to this thread. I'll try to do better.

Aren't the conditions different. DU munitions get pulverized into dust. Again, wouldn't a study have to be done?
Why? We already know that you should not breath in dust contaminated with U238. Nothing new. That is why it is no longer used as bullets.

So are you saying that a statistical link means nothing. I think a study is in order.
I say, that just a statistical link means nothing. Would you ask for a study to find out if the number of pirates is connected with global warming without further hints?

When I posted those links, my intention was just to share the info and start a discussion. I know I haven't been answering all of your questions but I'm a bit busy now and don't have a lot of time to devote to this thread. I'll try to do better.

So it was your intention to start a discussion? A discussion you cannot participate in, because you have
a) no time to do so, and have
b) not done your homework to form an own opinion about it.

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"Who does not know anything, must believe everything."
Baroness Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach 1830-1916

All real evidence points to diabetes being caused by a person's lifestyle and diet. Nothing points to radiation. Now, if it was leukemia that you were talking about, then we might give that consideration, as it is well know that radiation poisoning can result in a person contracting leukemia.
As has been said, it's not explained because there is no real connection.
Our conclusions are based on facts and available data from credible sources.

Plenty of dust can be generated at a uranium mine, more so than DU munitions.
As I understand it, DU is used because of it's hardness, not it's ability to be pulverized. Do you think it would be used in tank armor if it because dust upon an impact?

Estentially, yes, it's meaningless. Evidence doesn't support a link.
Of course, you could always write to the WHO or some other oragnization and request a study be done. See what comes up.

Our only credentials are knowing the facts, which are given by those that are credible.
Have you taken any action regarding a study?


It depends on how competent those doctors are.
Some doctors (not nessesarily medical ones) may worry about a gamma ray burst ending life on Earth.

For me, the comment on those countries mentioned being uninhabitable is not really the sign of someone competent in the subject at hand.

Your recent post is a start to a better tactic.
You must show that you understand what subject you're presenting to us, as well as your viewpoints. That way, a real discussion can take place. You could merely provide the links to cite as your sources of data.

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I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid...and I went ahead anyway. - Crow T. Robot

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

Lets make a distinction between type 1 and type 2 diabetes shall we? One is a auto-immune response against ones own pancreas. Nothing to do with "life style" other than picking the wrong parents. My youngest is of this type. She became diabetic when she was nine. She was rail thin and was a major carnivore. Some people are using the fact that *some* people live poor lifestyles and they whitewash all diabetics as gluttonous slobs. Really, I've seen it.

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"The beauty of that discussion of averages is that you don't have to be an expert in Apollo or in photography in order to see where this time study "analysis" breaks down. You just have to be, well...not an idiot." -JayUtah

David, you can draw statistical connections between anything If you like to show a link. Even between the number of pirates and global warming.
So are you saying that a statistical link means nothing. I think a study is in order.

I'm pretty sure Laguna2 wasn't saying that. Instead, as the saying goes, "Correlation does not mean causality." One way of looking at it is that there will be many spurious correlations between any two events or trends. Those based on sketchy data and lacking a strong explanation don't have a strong claim on research resources. That's the idea here.

It looks like the medical community sees a statistical connection between DU and diabetes and they don't even know how DU can cause diabetes.
That's because there's no plausible causal connection between the two.
What credentials do you have?

Fair question. I Am Not A Doctor. The only medical training/experience I have is in emergency medicine at the EMT-B level. I've sat on more than one diabetic who is thrashing around due to low blood sugar while the medic pushes D50 into his vein, but I don't claim to be an expert. However, the education I have had on diabetes has covered various well-established risk factors (including the steadily-increasing refined sugar of the average diet over many decades), and no diabetic I've ever encountered has any plausible DU exposure.

I have none but I always thought that a study was in order in cases like this before statements like that could be made.

Not really. A classic example is the "power lines cause leukemia" scare. Weak correlations, failure to control for other environmental and risk factors, and lack of any kind of realistic mechanism for 60 Hz EM fields to cause leukemia were not enough to stop a big wave of hysteria, publicity (see The Distinguished Gentleman) and lawsuits. I recommend reading Bob Parks' book Voodoo Science for an excellent treatment of this subject.

If a doctor is worried about it, I'm worried about it.
There are doctors who insist that AIDS is not caused by the HIV virus. ...
If doctors are worried about it, it's not something to take lightly.

You seemed to have completely ignored my point here. There are doctors who are worried about or believe the things in the list just mentioned, but those doctors are simply wrong. Just being an MD doesn't automatically mean your particular belief makes any sense. Do you really think we should, say, give credence to homeopathy despite two centuries of failure to show any credible results, or come up with any proposed mechanism of action that does not violate the laws of chemistry, physics, and medicine, just because some doctors still believe in such sympathetic magic?

The woman who talks in this video has a Ph.D...
Don't you think there's a slight chance that what she says reflects reality?
Sure. There's also a chance she's a blithering idiot. There are Ph.Ds who insist the Earth was created six thousand years ago, or that it's the center of the Universe, or <see list above>.
Tell me something that she said that makes you think she's incompetent. She sounds like she's being very careful not to be dogmatic.

Oh, I wasn't referring to anything she specifically said; I didn't look at the video. I was simply making the general point that having a PhD is no more a guarantee of having a clue than is having an MD. Case in point: PhDs who believe in psychic spoon-bending.

When I posted those links, my intention was just to share the info and start a discussion. I know I haven't been answering all of your questions but I'm a bit busy now and don't have a lot of time to devote to this thread. I'll try to do better.

Well, no one thinks you get paid to hang around BAUT. (That's reserved for us NASA-CIA-NSA-Illuminati-Freemason Paid Government Apologist/Official Pro-Apollo Nut and Moon Hoax Conspiracy Truth Suppressor/Stealth Gubmint Ninja Assassin Conspiracy Enforcers (NCNIFPGAOPANMHCTSSGNACEs, for short).

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"Slapping a guy on the head is just as funny now as it was eighty years ago."

Please provide references to the medical research studies that show a link between diabetes and levels of uranium in the population. Obviously, such a study would have to look at known causes of diabetes and show how they can be ruled out. And we would expect to see, world wide, a tie to local uranium exposure, where there is often more exposure than that from a few DU rounds.

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Ok, David. I'm mostly useless in maths and astronomy. But here I can step in. I am, in fact, credentialed in the medical field. I'm not going to bother posting 5 pages of rebuttal, because frankly it's been done pretty well already, and I dont' feel like wasting my time re-inventing the wheel.

But instead of chasing around quackery and every situation in the world where A and B live together on the same planet, we, with our extremely limited funding, are too busy conducting studies and trying to find cures for cancer, luekemia, AIDS/HIV, hell, the common cold, you know, the situations where we can demonstrate causality, that A causes B, to chase around woo-woo hypotheticals like if the known amount of living ninjas and malaria are linked.

Do you have any conception of how much as study costs? Do you wonder why there're always fund-raisers on TV? It costs bloody money, like "the worth of 3rd world countries" money. If you think a study should be done, I have a proposition for you. You just come up with the funding, and I can secure all of the biologists, Doctors, Nurses, Lab Techs, etc... you need. You seem to think starting a study is a relatively simple procedure, and haven't adressed funding. So, you work on that end, and get back to us when you have gathered the 10's (if not 100's) of millions needed to commision the resource wasting venture. I'll be waiting with the team, so get back to us whenever you're ready to commision it.

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

Thanks for the distinction, BigDon.
I was only aware of the type that involves lifestyle and diet.

In that case David C, add genetics to a cause of diabetes.

Still no evidence of DU's role.

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I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid...and I went ahead anyway. - Crow T. Robot

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

My brother in law developed Type 1. He was well into his 30s when he got it. They used to refer to Type 1 as "juvenile diabetes" except that a certain percentage get it in adulthood. We don't know the specific reasons for autoimmune diseases but genetics certainly plays a role.

As for Type 2, lifestyle definitely has been shown to play a large role, as do certain medications, and there is genetic predisposition here as well. You sometimes see a large increase in a population when diet changes.

Both autoimmune diseases and type 2 diabetes are more common in the countries with high per capita income. (Edited to add: Type 2 is associated with certain, usually rich diets common in some but not all of the wealthier countries. A number of autoimmune diseases are more common in the U.S. and other countries with better hygiene. This has led to the Hygiene hypothesis argument as one possible factor in autoimmune diseases. Of course, this is one hypothesis among many, but there are some interesting disease statistics.)

What we have here is an argument that DU is a strong promoter for diabetes (type 1 or 2 wasn't specified). To make sense medically, any such argument would need to be based on careful research showing how it was specifically selected over other causes. General accusations are pointless.

__________________
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

As another medical fella (hi, Serenitude), it might be useful for me to chime in to confirm that, in medical research, simple statistical association will (quite rightly) get you precisely nowhere when you're trying to interest a funding body in your research.
One of the standard references in these matters is Sackett & Tugwell's Clinical Epidemiology, and they give nine criteria by which to judge possible causation, as opposed to simple statistical linkage.

1) Is there evidence from true experiments in humans?
2) Is the association strong?
3) Is the association consistent?
4) Is the temporal relationship correct?
5) Is there a dose-response relationship?
6) Does the association make epidemiological sense?
7) Does the association make biological sense?
8) Is the association specific?
9) Is the association analogous to a previously proven causal assocation?

The association between uranium and diabetes fails the majority of these tests, so in terms of "medical science" it doesn't get off the ground.

Grant Hutchison

David C, here's a suggested line of inquiry for a depleted uranium. Has diabetes increased dramatically in China with the heavy increase in coal consumption there? That liberates lots of U-238, especially in plants with lax emission controls.

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"Slapping a guy on the head is just as funny now as it was eighty years ago."

Hard to beat that one, unless the person David C refers to makes up her own criteria.

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I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid...and I went ahead anyway. - Crow T. Robot

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

Don't mean to sidetrack this thread, but could someone please point me to articles that the US and other countries that currently or in the past have used DU have stopped manufacturing it for weapons? I tried doing a few searches, but most of what I come up with is the standard "DU kills everything because it's radioactive!" sites and a couple debunking sites. Nothing in regard to the discontinued weapons use.

I only ask because I remember reading an article once about how much more effective DU is as a armor penetrator than tungsten, as well as the fact that pretty much the only source for tungsten is China. It seems rather silly that the economic benefit and performance benefit would be abandoned simply because a few, misinformed vocal people are screaming about how evil DU is. After all, we still use lead for standard small arms bullets, and it's just about as dangerous chemically as DU is.

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DOOM Master