Of course, you can always argue that spending on NASA projects actually does help feed the poor. Or, perhaps more directly, keeps a lot of people off welfare by providing them with jobs.

The arguements here can get very convoluted and - as BA points out - it's specious anyway.

Interesting you mention this. There was a story on the news earlier this week about waste in the defense budget. It seems the DoD has no idea what happens to (grab something solid) about 25% of its budget. That works out to about $2.3 trillion annually... which would feed a lot of kids and fund a lot of space exploration.

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Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Isaac Asimov

odysseus0101: Does anyone still argue that humans should not go into space because it is somehow unnatural or against the will of some deity?

I would argue that we should not be looking to explore space until we get our own planet in order. Going to the moon and sharing a lump of rock with other countries is only symbolic of our stupidity.

It does it for me! [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Please note that we are spending 1/2 billion dollars a day to get George re-elected - sorry I meant on the war on terrorism. Compare that to NASA's budget.

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TANSTAAFL!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kaptain K on 2002-01-31 16:59 ]</font>

I would argue that we should not be looking to explore space until we get our own planet in order.

But we've had thousands of years to get our planet in order without the distraction of going to other planets, and it didn't happen or look like it was ever going to happen. Would you have had Spain or England or Italy get their own houses in order before setting off across the seas to discover new continents?

Just as we can pay for it all at the same time, we can do it all at the same time. Delaying exploration won't accelerate the resolution of domestic issues.

But I'm reminded of the universal observation of astronauts as they see the earth from above with no national boundaries. They all say they have a perspective that transcends nationalities and races, given to them by looking at a very small blue and white marble from a great distance away. Perhaps if more people had this perspective, some of the problems in the world would seem as petty as they really are.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: JayUtah on 2002-01-31 17:29 ]</font>

Next Israeli/Palestinian summit on the ISS? I suspect that would only make things worse. They'd see that small blue and white marble and realize that's all we have, and they'd suddenly understand that the stakes are higher than they thought and that no compromises should be made. Perhaps too cynical...

Back to the topic of reliability...

I seem to remember a lot of early Mars missions failed or even missed entirely. Anyone have an idea what the cost/success ratio for expensive projects compared to the more recent less expensive ones?

Jay: But we've had thousands of years to get our planet in order without the distraction of going to other planets, and it didn't happen or look like it was ever going to happen.

We are slow learners. That said, I can't help but feel that this generation should know better. Hm, it does know better. We just need somebody to step forth and rally us in a different way. I honestly don't believe we have tried hard enough. Is the fear of embarrassing ourselves and the cold light of day really going to stop us from making true progress?

Jay: Would you have had Spain or England or Italy get their own houses in order before setting off across the seas to discover new continents?

Ideally, yes! We in the UK had no right to go gallivanting around the globe pillaging from other countries, but we did. We became rather good at it, too. Is that part of evolution? Perhaps it is. Perhaps rivalry amongst nations is inevitable in a society of flawed beings. Even so, for considerable time, we have been confined on this planet. Our troubles are just that, our own. If we wonder further out into space now it will be with a fake smile and under the pretence of a united front.

Jay: Perhaps if more people had this perspective, some of the problems in the world would seem as petty as they really are.

Yes, I agree with you. But how can you convey that feeling on TV? How can you convey it to the masses? Many who will never get to see the blue Earth from space can still imagine and appreciate that feeling and know its true worth. But there is a bottleneck somewhere. I really think the problem is that we, as a people, are not trying hard enough.

I'm suddenly reminded of Tasmin Archers Sleeping Satellite.

It seems to me that our constant contentiousness is a good thing because it creates situations that necessitate invention. Where would the space program be today if Hitler hadn't really wanted to attack London? If the US and USSR hadn't been trying to prove to each other how awesome they were by putting people in space? If the National Recon Office didn't need high-res pictures of NBC weapons sites?

Yeah, I think Newton was just brilliant enough to see that coming. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

2.3 trillion?!? If I'm not mistaken, that's bigger than the entire Federal budget!

We have at least one analysis along those lines posted (in paper form) here at APL. I'll have to see what the source is and if it's available online.

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Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

I can't help but feel that this generation should know better.

It should, but it doesn't and it won't. The problems with society are the same problems that have existed since society: greed, envy, self-preservation, the need to control.

We in the UK had no right to go gallivanting around the globe pillaging from other countries, but we did.

Yeah, that taxation without representation thing really chapped our hides. Seriously, if you had waited until Europe was a continental Utopia before striking out for new territories, you'd all still be there and I wouldn't be here.

Is that part of evolution?

I believe it's innate human nature. No amount of philosophical erudition will erase it.

Perhaps rivalry amongst nations is inevitable in a society of flawed beings.

I think perfection is an unrealistic goal. Therefore we must learn to deal with how we treat each other. And we must not let it deter us from other goals. We can, in a perverse sort of way, turn it to our advantage. Leonardo da Vinci did some of his best work under the patronage of a Tuscan warlord.

... we have been confined on this planet.

As we were once confined to continents, plains, and valleys. The scope of confinement is not an issue. The fact that humans by nature stretch the boundaries is.

Yes, I agree with you. But how can you convey that feeling on TV? How can you convey it to the masses?

I have no idea, unless you have Klaatu's phone number. The point is not so much that everyone ought to have that perspective as it is that some already have. And had we waited for utopia there would be no such perspective today.

I really think the problem is that we, as a people, are not trying hard enough.

I agree. We are not motivated to try hard enough, and I believe we won't unless we have a universal view of our planet, not merely a collection of arbitrary lines on the map. If we keep our vision local we just make those local problems appear so much more pervasive, when from orbit they are trivial.

We won't have Israelis and Palestinians joining hands and singing from the space station. That's not what I'm on about. But somebody has to have that perspective. We have to know that there is a real, tangible perspective outside that of our nation or world.

Just a thought – maybe the reason that we (Space Exploration Enthusiasts) have such a hard time convincing others of the true value of the exploration is that we are so reasonable. When someone asks “Wouldn’t the money be better spent on …..” we sit back and give a thoughtful response sometimes conceding to the partial validity of the other’s point. We don’t have the blind emotional fervor of most activists that simply refer to people who disagree with them as dumb or ignorant.

Back to an earlier part of this discussion – failed missions – I can’t recall any of the U.S. inter-planetary missions of the 60’s and 70’s failing esp. the ones to Mars. I believe the USSR even had their Mars missions succeed but I could be wrong. It goes right to the fact that you cannot do all three of the “faster, cheaper, better” at the same time – the point is that in the early U.S. programs we only strived for better!

If we did have missions that failed I’d be interested in reading about them if for no other reason to fill in memory gaps.

I can't recall any of the U.S. inter-planetary missions of the 60’s and 70’s failing esp. the ones to Mars. I believe the USSR even had their Mars missions succeed but I could be wrong.

There were quite a few failures on both sides. I'll see if I can find a concise list of the missions. In fact, it was so hard to get anything to Mars that engineers concluded there must be a great big space monster out in the vicinity of Mars gobbling up spacecraft, and it had developed quite a taste for Soviet ones. I think Burroughs' book has a cartoon drawn of the alleged monster. The conspiracy theory is that there's something on Mars someone (or something) doesn't want us to see.

It goes right to the fact that you cannot do all three of the "faster, cheaper, better" at the same time

Not if that's how you're designing spaceships. You can only design spaceships faster and/or cheaper. The "better" was supposed to come from the more effective use of resources. But because of the public's stilted reaction to space expenditures it never materialized. Goldin made the mistake of assuming the public would react rationally.

Here's a table of missions to Mars

I count 30 total missions (including Mars Odyssey as a success, which may be premature), with the US successful 9 out of 14 attempts and the Soviets successful 6 out of 16, and that's being generous - I don't think the Soviets have had an unqualifiedly successful Mars mission.

I didn't count Nozomi.

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Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

Without landing too hard on it... Osama bin Laden, Arafat, N. Korea et. al.

I've been one of the grunts swapping lead with the bad guys and believe me, NONE of these folks hold our respect for peace and brotherhood. Every time we cut military budgets they see it as a sign of weakness that makes us more worthy of attack. Do the terms "Ground Zero", WTC, Pentagon, prove their commitment to this line of thought?

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It's just one of those damn things of which there are many few. -- Dan Blocker

I am not denigrating the military in any way, nor do I underestimate its importance. However, the military is by far the largest single place where our money goes. I used it as an example of better places to look for places to trim money over NASA, the budget of which is a tiny fraction of the military's.

If you are running out of room on your hard drive, for example, you can delete all the text files you want, and it will take hours. However, deleting a single image file will dwarf the amount of the text files, and take a few seconds.

I have no desire to cut flesh from the military. However, I am quite sure there are places where the budget could be trimmed without affecting the quality of our defensive and offensive capabilities.

You may note I also said that Americans spend roughly the same amount on their pets every year as NASA's budget. Add in cosmetics (a several billion dollar a year industry) and you can see that we spend money on far less important things than NASA.

My point: there is money to go around, more than enough to do what we need. The problem isn't amount, it's targeting.

Oops, BA, I think you misstepped a bit.

The largest segment of the Federal budget is not the military. It's the entitlement programs, such as Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

However, of the non-entitled portion of the budget, the military is the biggest dipper. And I agree with the rest of your comments, but it quickly becomes a question of politics.

My pet peeve at the moment is the proposed missile defense system -- a huge expenditure for an unproven system of limited usefulness.

<a name="20020203.1:58"> page 20020203.1:58 aka Moon Shadow
On 2002-02-02 18:33, Donnie B. wrote: To: 1:58 A.M. PST JD2452309
.1 Yeah, I got the "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO" message2
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/vi...t=25#20020129a same topic 5 days ago?
4My part? I wish to mention Earth Shine
which as i view this tail should have been
EASILY able to cast shadows on the DARK side
of the terminator, where I will guess, 4now,
the Eagle landed over the line? however as i read it
it was dayligh by the time the hatchopenedd? donno tho