When it was a weather ballon(officially) you would have asked me to prove that it was not, there was no way i could do that, i could only speculate. Now i dont have evidence on what really happend at roswell, but that does not mean i have to go with what the government are saying, why should i. Im sorry, but if you look into the case, you will see holes. I have seen these holes, thats why i feel there is still a cover-up. If you want to believe the project M explanation, then you can.

Of course it is so much easier to simply believe that the government is lying....although (like you've said), you have no evidence for that, either.

The "assumption" being, if I have looked into this case and don't see those "holes", then there is something wrong with my evaluation. Sorry, that reasoning is faulty.

As I said in the other post...present your evidence. Handwaving that you see "holes" is in no way evidence...

"Belief" as nothing to do with it...evidence does.

Do you have some form of evidence that you would like to present? By all means, tell us all about the "holes".

aside...I will be away for the remainder of the day, I will return to this thread tomorrow.

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

I think, Mr. Royal Air Force, you are being a little unfair to Jay76. People on this forum are very quick to jump down the throats whose opinion they disagree with. The initial report, as I have stated, was that a flying disk had been revovered by the army. This story was a bona fide source from the military public relations dept. It was susequently change to a weather balloon. Then when that was shown to be unlikely, much later on, the story was changed again. So the story has been changed 3 times! And you wonder why people are a little suspicious?

I don't wonder why people are suspicious.

What I do wonder is why so any attribute it to aliens.

It's far more plausible that the Roswell incident had to do with secret testing of some sort than a downed alien craft.

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This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

But even covert flights are logged. This was not shown in any log.

Just because the cover story for a classified project changes, does not prove doodley squat....In fact no one would care about any of this, were it not for Moore and Berlitz almost singlehandely inventing the myth....

I have heard many versions of this modern myth, but seen no evidence of anything other than a balloon...Or I suppose that Aliens from light years away, use plastic and bamboo to make their interstellar craft.....

Holes in the "cover" mean nothing, it is up to the proponents of this to provide some kind of evidence if they want to prove what they believe, is true..

Dale

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"Ad astra per aspera"

Do we know if those logs are classified or not?

I'm willing to bet that they are, and remain so.

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This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

Turns out I was able to finish earlier than I anticipated...so let us continue...

A "common" mistake. RAF are my initials...it has nothing to do with the British RAF.

Explain why you think that. IMO, I have been nothing but nice to Jay1976. I can understand that people "generally" don't like being told that they are wrong, but that's not my problem.

This is a science board. If people come here and say that there is some form of conspiracy associated with "the Roswell incident" then they should expect to provide evidence to demonstrate that to be true. Everyone is intitled to their own informed opinion.

In those days, the term "flying disk" was not equated to mean "alien spacecraft". People need to understand that this event did not happen in a "vacuum". At the time, there were very real concerns that these "things" might have been another nation's attempt to attack us...people weren't thinking about aliens, they were thinking about Russians.

"Shown to be unlikely"? Sounds like your obvious bias "attaching itself" to the Roswell story. It's not an objective opinion.

As Grand_Lunar posted suspicion isn't unusual when a secret government project is concerned, but the alien "aspect" is (and let me be perfectly clear, here) unsupported by any objective evidence.

It's as simple as that.

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

Er, well, no actually, it is not that simple at all. We must all weigh the evidence in the balance of probability. If no other explanations are deemed credible than it is not incredible that the object might be a UFO. Many UFO's have been looged by exprerienced pilots so the probability is that they exist. Your crude dismissal techniques will not wash with me.

Says you?? then prove that I am wrong.

But if one demonstrates personal bias for "the UFO explanation", then that "bias" disqualifies them from making an objective analysis. You have shown that "bias" in your posts.

You seem to be under the impression that if you say it, then that makes it "so".

You couldn't be more mistaken...as you have so aptly shown in your posts.

If you would actually like to address what I have posted, then fine...if not, then perhaps you shouldn't be attempting to post answers.

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

If a military was involved, then no wonder the debris would look weird and the story would change quite often. Military research is known for "the need to know" approach and most its PRs are on the side of "don't need to know". The way millitary is set up makes far less work to keep things secret than declassifying them.

If you find something you had not seen before, why would a first reaction be "aliens did it"?
I find many things in my fridge I had never seen before, but I kind of suspect rather a bit simpler explanation than UFO and alien probing my rear.

As stated before by someone else, it is the human nature to create fantasy stories. It makes life a bit more entertaining. Of course in 20th century saying "Forest Wich did it" doesn't realy sound that exciting but UFOs do.
I wonder what would be the thing of this century since UFO is getting a bit old news.

Have you notice how the UFO change with years? The old UFOs look like a flying 60' Chevy, with all that bulges and curves we all admired as young pranksters. The new pictures of UFO are getting more modern design, more flat and sleek like a Porche.
Why that would be? An alien innovation in design?

Are aliens out there? Yes.
Are aliens here? No.

Have you considered the fact that those the spend most of their time watching the skies, i.e, astronomers, tend not to report UFOs?
A reason for this is because they are familar with the phenomenon that perpetrate them. A good deal of such sightings turn out to be Venus, bright meteors, duck bellies, clouds, ect.
In some cases in the past, experimental aircraft also undoubtedly perpetrate UFO sightings. Imagine what most people familar with older style jet aircraft thought when they spotted the Flying Wing from a distance. Ditto for the predecessors of the F-14, F-15, and F-117.

BadScience makes good points also on the changing descriptions of UFOs.
The BA also made good points about aliens in a blog entry he did, showing how people's description of aliens is strikingly similar to how infants may see their parents.

These considerations say more about the UFO "phenomenon" then anything.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

Right! i know a bit about roswell, well, quite alot really. I have read alot of stuff on here from people who simply do not know the case, and are just going by what the government says, im glad im not like that because i like to think for myself . Anyways here are some facts about roswell.

<removed cut and paste form this website: http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sf-government-lies1.html>

Moderator note: Jay1976 do not violate copyright again by claiming the wrotten ideas of others are yours. Copy and paste posts are prohibited.

While it is true that you cannot prove a negative (or, in science, a postive either!), it would still have been your burden of proof to provide evidence, which is a different thing entirely. Some people around here seem to have a hard time realizing this, but "it could have been" is not evidence, nor is "there's something wrong with the official story." Even proving us wrong doesn't prove you right, you know. In order to be taken seriously, no matter which side you're on, you must show evidence. The reason mainstream ideas have become mainstream ideas, and therefore ideas that don't have to be argued for every single time, is the weight of evidence behind them.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

If i had this way of thinking, then i would not have come to my own conclusion that the government are still covering up. I have listed many lies that the government have used in this case. Its all there, and you can check out the story anywhere on the net. The problem we have here, is that many people think the government can do no wrong, whatever they say goes. Thats why every lie they have said about roswell, must de-bunkers did not question it, and they never will. But that does not mean some de-bunkers came to this conclusion by studying the case , they came to this conclusion because the government told them so. The government told you it was a weather balloon, even though it did not make sense, no de-bunkers questioned it,why? The Project M, no de-bunkers questioned that either, even though it still had many holes, why? Now this is the best one. Dummies. De-bunkers argued about no bodies of any such were at the roswell crash, but now the government say that the roswell incident did involve dummies. So now some de-bunkers are saying that these dummies were mistaken for aliens, even though they were saying proove this theory before. So what does this tell you? it tells me a hell of a lot. It tells me that no matter what the government say, some people are going to believe it. And if something goes against the government, who have lied twice already, and im sure more is to come, they will not believe it.

I know we all need the proof, that hard evidence that there is a cover-up. But that does not mean i have to be a sheep and agree with something that just does not make any sense, and you dont have to be a rocket scientist to see this.

None of the so-called lies you listed actually were lies; they were all statements of fact made in good faith. The 'government' (that is to say the US Government) has nothing to cover up, because it has no more information left in its archives about this case.
If you want to find a conspiracy in this case, you will find it a relatively low level and long ago; Blanchard, Marcel and(perhaps as an innocent party) Haut put out a bizarre and fantastical press release, which was found on investigation to be wrong. As I have shown, other similar events occurred nine times in 1946 and eleven times during the course of 1947.

Somehow Blanchard, as well as Ramey or other parties, managed to avoid putting in detailed records of this event, or if they did, they managed to get then destroyed soon after. I believe this was your conspiracy; a plot to bury the story of Blanchard's incompetence by eradicating it from the records. And, as I said before, it nearly worked.

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New Orion's Arm Site . The Starlark . Against a Diamond Sky (OA Novella Collection) . OA Flickr set

How do you know they were statments made in good faith?
and how do you know they have no more information in the archives, because they said so?

If you want to find a conspiracy in this case, you will find it a relatively low level and long ago; Blanchard, Marcel and(perhaps as an innocent party) Haut put out a bizarre and fantastical press release, which was found on investigation to be wrong. As I have shown, other similar events occurred nine times in 1946 and eleven times during the course of 1947.

So are you saying that the photo that shows marcel and the weather balloon is what creahed in roswell?

So thats all the holes you fount in the case??

Marcel stated on one occasion that the material in the photos was the material found in the desert. I don't believe a lot of what he had to say, as I suspect he was one of the people responsible for the initial misidentification and misleading press release; but there is a good chance that he was telling the truth on that occasion.

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New Orion's Arm Site . The Starlark . Against a Diamond Sky (OA Novella Collection) . OA Flickr set

Can you please give me a link to where you got this information. I find this hard to believe considering what he said about the material. I find it very hard to believe that someone with his experience would make a mistake like that. The photo , shows what looks like a weather balloon, or even if you dont know what one looks like you can tell its just wood and foil

This is what Marcel said;
"General Ramey allowed some members of the press in to take a picture of the stuff. They took one picture of me on the floor holding up some of the less-interesting metallic debris. The press was allowed to photograph this, but were not allowed far enough into the room to touch it. The stuff in that photo was pieces of the actual stuff we found. It was not a staged photo."
From here
http://www.roswellfiles.com/Witnesses/MarcelMyths.htm

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New Orion's Arm Site . The Starlark . Against a Diamond Sky (OA Novella Collection) . OA Flickr set

Now that's the major problem I have discussing this topic with "credulous believers". jay1976, You have absolutely no idea what my personal opinion of the government "is", yet you have no "qualms" painting anyone who would disagree with your ideas as being somehow "fooled" by the government. With pride, you state that you "think for yourself" yet those who simply want to see evidence for this "cover-up" are characterized as "blindly following" whatever the government says...

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you make such glaring errors in reasoning???

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

[QUOTE=eburacum45;886327]None of the so-called lies you listed actually were lies; they were all statements of fact made in good faith. The 'government' (that is to say the US Government) has nothing to cover up, because it has no more information left in its archives about this case.
[QUOTE]

Oh, come of it, for God's sake. If the government said the moon was made of green cheese you'd tell us it was so. Jay76 is quite correct on this point. You all want you cake and to eat it. The government have been caught out lying and yet you expect us then to take their word for any other garbage they might come out with. It is up to you to explain why need for all these government lies over the years.

I don't know if you were asked about it already jay1976, but have you given your own thoughts on Roswell? Do you think it an alien crash site?

Haven't you heard of "need to know" information? Most likely, that's what the deal is with Roswell.


As for you Spock, it's not up to us to explain why the govt does what it does with Roswell.
Hiding stuff is not unusal for it. Again it has to do with "need to know".

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

Both you and jay1976 are in error. I know you think this "characterization" of others somehow helps your argument, but all you're doing is proving your obvious bias for us. We really don't need to do any "debunking" as long as you post in such a manner...face it...you're debunking yourself.

Sorry...burden of proof is not on us...it is on you...if you would like to provide your "evidence", we're waiting to evaluate it...

__________________
"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

What!! did i say you? did i mention your name? no! So what do you do when you disagree with someone on here? maybe i shall see what you have posted and see what you put when you dont agree with someone!

Oh really! please inform me what my glaring errors in reasoning are?

Don't play "games". We all know what the implications of your post were so don't even ATTEMPT to insult my intelligence...

When I disagree with someone. If I think that they are wrong in their assumptions, I'll ask them to provide evidence to back up what they are posting...that's all...

So will you be providing evidence in the near future??

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

This catch-all/excuse need to know seems the perfect get-out clause when some is caught out lying. "Well we had to lie because it was a need to know top secret project. Not that there is onne scrap of evidence purporting that Roswell had anything to do with black projects. But then you'll sneer back and say: "but that is the nature of black projects." So people like myself or Jay76 can never, ever, say anything correct according to your rules. You make the rules up and change them to suit yourselves when it is convenient. Unfortunately for you and the government we say your rules stink.

Sorry...I missed this part...

Why right here...

Your "reasoning" error is that you would assume what others thoughts are...without evidence.

Do I really "need" to tell you not to do that??

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

Can I get a "ruling" from a mod on this??

In my humble opinion what spock has posted is a flat out lie.

(But I don't want to say that myself as it might be considered an "unfair" attack". )

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

Very mature last statement.

I speak from personal experience concerning the classification the govt applies to projects.

The story only seems like a lie because obviously the real deal is classified.
For example, the govt only admits that submarines go down to 800 feet. Before that, they said 400 feet. They actually can go deeper, but the govt won't tell what the actualy limit is.
Nor will the govt tell how the B2 bomber evades radar.

Is there a reason not to assume the events at Roswell aren't treated the same way?

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah