I think i have only said that to you, and thats understandable. If you dont agree with my conclusions, i dont care, i dont insult people about it. Please quote me on the things i have said?

I would if u would just put a sock in it!

So "if only" you didn't have to respond to feedback from me, then you would be able to proceed with the presentation of your evidence??

That doesn't make a lot of sense, but sure, be my guest...proceed...

__________________
"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

Both of you need to chill. The report button is to be used when someone breaks a rule, not because you are irritated with each other. This is not a warning, just stop the bickering.

__________________
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

The Roswell incident couldn't have been a military project because the military was unaware of any crash until notified by a civilian. Flight test of secret aircraft were carried out in California at Muroc AFB, now known as Edwards AFB, which incidently, had its own UFO encounters just days after the Roswell incident. Here is the report.

http://www.nuforc.org/Muroc.html

I use to think that a Mogul balloon train was launched at one time but I became suspicious of any launch because no one mentioned recovering anything associated with a Mogul balloon train on the Foster ranch, so I did further research and found that Mogul balloon train #4 was never launched in the first place and the reason was due to clouds. Here is a typical equipment list of a Mogul balloon train yet none of the following equipment was ever recovered on that ranch.

Mogul Balloon Train Equipment

* Dribblers

* Ballast tubes

* Braided lines

* 28 balloons of various sizes

* Radiosode

* 17.5 payload

* Parachutes

* Equipment gauges

The June 3, 1947 launch of a Mogul balloon train was also cancelled due to clouds in the area. The next Mogul balloon flight didn't take place until June 5 and that balloon flight is listed in Mogul balloon flight records as balloon flight #5. That is why there are no flight records for Mogul balloon train #4, because it was never flown.

Mogul balloons were not classified objects and that was no way they could have been confused as downed 'flying saucers.' The balloon train in this photo, which incidently, was recovered by civilians, doesn't resemble a downed 'flying saucer' yet no saucer cover-up story by the military for this recovery.

http://roswellproof.homestead.com/Tr...es_7-14-47.jpg

I also found that Mogul balloon trains were recovered by civilians on other occasions as well. One Mogul balloon train was vandalized because no one was sent to recover the contraption eventhough it was left lying next to a roadway. Mogul balloon trains also had reward tags, equipment ID tags, ID tags identifying the equipment as government property, and questionaires for anyone who recovers a downed Mogul balloon train so there was no way they could have confused them as an ET craft from outer space. The questionaires that were attached to Mogul balloon trains requested the discovered to add their input as to how fast the Mogul balloon train decended, the time and location the downed balloon was found. In other words, ordinary civilians without secret clearances were invited to add information regarding their discovery of any downed Mogul balloon train.

Another Mogul balloon was recovered by a policeman in Flat Bush, New Jersey after ther balloon snagged itself on the roof of a tavern. Another Mogul balloon train was recovered by Rancher, Sid West, in New Mexico and it wasn't until the next day that two individuals were sent to recover the Mogul balloons. Mogul balloon recoveries were not of high priority and the reason why they were often left lying in open fields.

So, thanks to the Air Force, which supplied some of that information, no Project Mogul balloon train was involved in the Roswell incident.

According to the GAO, permanent records relating to the Roswell incident at Roswell AAF were destroyed.

As far as who initiated the Roswell cover-up? It wasn't the folks in Texas nor at Roswell AAF, but from Washington D.C.

-------------------------------------------------------------

WAR V WU A50 NL PD

KALAMAZOO MICH JUL 8

WAR DEPT

INTELLIGENCE DIV WASHDC

SUGGEST SAUCERS ARE RADAR TARGET FOR WEATHER OBSERVATION

PURPOSES CONTACT COL M DUFFY SPRING LAKE NEW JERSEY FOR

INFORMATION

TONY GASTON NEWS EDITOR WKZO

1015P

WKZO.

keep the information coming sky

I have some information on Project Mogul proving that Project Mogul balloon train #4, which the Air Force implied was responsible for the Roswell incident, never was flown and the Air Force knew it. In other words, that balloon train could not have been responsible for the Roswell incident by that very fact.

For a while, I thought that Mogul balloon train was launched at one time but I became suspicious as to why there were no flight records for Mogul balloon train #4 so I did further investigating and now, I found out why thanks to the U.S. Air Force.

I am waiting for approval to have the information posted.

Do you have evidence to back this up?

This is meaningless, since we have no idea where you got this from. This is why citations are important.

__________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes."
Mark Twain

Avatar courtesy of Bunny.

It is important because it shows that there was in fact, a government cover-up relating to the Roswell incident. That document also confirms the testimony of Jesse Marcel and Thomas Dubose, both who posed with the Roswell debris in the famous photos. Here's the document.

http://project1947.com/roswell/wkzo.gif

Yes, but what exactly was the government covering up??

__________________
"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

1993 affidavit signed by Haut

AFFIDAVIT

My name is Walter Haut.

My address is: [-------BLACKED OUT-------]

I am retired.

In July 1947, I was stationed at the Roswell Army Air base, serving as the base Public Information Officer. At approximately 9:30 AM on July 8, I received a call from Col. William Blanchard, the base commander, who said he had in his possession a flying saucer or parts thereof. He said it came from a ranch northwest of Roswell, and that the base Intelligence Officer, Major Jesse Marcel, was going to fly the material to Fort Worth.

Col. Blanchard told me to write a news release about the operation and to deliver it to both newspapers and the two radio stations in Roswell. He felt that he wanted the local media to have the first opportunity to have the story. I went first to KGFL, then to KSWS, then to the *Daily Record* and finally to the *Morning Dispatch*.

The next day, I read in the newspaper that General Roger Ramey in Fort Worth has said the object was a weather balloon. I believe Col. Blanchard saw the material, because he sounded positive about what the material was. There is no chance that he would have mistaken it for a weather balloon. Neither is there any chance that Major Marcel would have been mistaken.

In 1980, Jesse Marcel told me that the material photographed in Gen. Ramey's office was not the material he had recovered.

I am convinced that the material recovered was some type of craft from outer space.

I have not been paid nor given anything of value to make this statement, and it is the truth to the best of my recollection.

/s/ Walter G. Haut
Signature witnessed by: 5-14-93 Max Littell. /s/ (Date)

That's nice. Walter is convinced.

Unfortunately we can't simply take Walter's "word" for it.

We require evidence....got some??

__________________
"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

We have evidence that the object that crashed at Roswell is not what the Air Force said it was.

I am going with the remains of a 'flying saucer.'

Not many people are aware that Project Mogul and Skyhook balloon teams were reporting 'flying saucers' over New Mexico as well. In fact, Charles Moore, the person who has been trying to debunk the Roswell incident as one of his Mogul balloon trains, recorded his own UFO sighting, which was published in LIFE Magazine in 1952 and is listed as "Incident 3.

"Moore's sighting is also found in a number of government documents, including those of the CIA, whose scientists were very impressed by it."

http://roswellproof.homestead.com/LIFE_1952.html


And, there is this.


"Naval Commander Robert B. McLaughlin, head of the Naval missile program at White Sands (who unequivocally stated that the flying saucers being spotted by White Sands personnel, including himself, were not only real but extraterrestrial in origin).

http://roswellproof.homestead.com/files/MCLAUGH1.jpg

J. Allen Hynek was an hardcore UFO skepitc, that is, until he became involved into the investigation of the UFO enigma. Afterwards, he wasn't skeptical anymore!

I don't rely just on visual accounts alone, but on visual accounts that can be corroborated by other means such as data evidence from radar and ELINT systems.

Skyeagle409, one thing we like on these fora is for sources to be linked or at least listed. Your "affidavit" from Haut carries neither.

Also, there is a BAUT policy about not posting copyrighted material, which this may be. Try posting a tease and a link instead.

__________________
Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Isaac Asimov

Well, you know what time it is for.

Z-Com! For UFO defensiveness!

(Sorry, had to comment. Going back to lurker mode now.)

__________________
There are few left who
Stare at the skies with wonder
Wishing to know more;
The clouds still drift by above
But the eyes below are blind.
--Laura Lundberg

Check out my writing, maybe.

I should mention that Lt. Haut also made the same comments on TV to where there was no question as to what he was saying.

In regards to UFOs, a lot of my references can be obtained under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), and microfilm from libraries but I rely much on my own knowledge as to what the data evidence reveals. Here's a link and I will post links from now on.

http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/true-mc.htm

Well, here is a pretty indepth investigation into Roswell...
http://www.roswellfiles.com/index.htm

__________________
______________________________________________
“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

I sort of had hoped that the "alien crash" theorists were out of here.

What happened to rational thinking?

Interesting stuff, gzhpcu. I'm actually surprised the ballon theory holds up. I always figured it was a crash, but a secret aircraft.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

C'mon Grand Lunar, surely we can accomplish this without attacks.

(And yes, I suppose I'm not one to be talking, but point out when I'm making attacks when you can and we're all happy)

__________________
There are few left who
Stare at the skies with wonder
Wishing to know more;
The clouds still drift by above
But the eyes below are blind.
--Laura Lundberg

Check out my writing, maybe.

I wonder of some of the advocates of this being an extraordinary occurance, could explain one thing that "sticks" in my mind, so to speak....

Why does this event, of necessity, have to involve "Aliens"???
Why not something less unlikely??

One other point, the quote from the White Sands Officer above means absolutely nothing, without some kind of evidence, and even the language used leads one to wonder about what kind of rational process was going on at the time.....Why use the term "Flying Saucers", when "Anomolous Objects", or Unidentified Objects would have been more logical and a lot less assumptive......IF some object or light is seen, why do we go right off and call it something it is not, without evidence???

Dale in Ala

__________________
"Ad astra per aspera"

The materials found were not consistent with any Mogul balloon train. I listed the items carried by Mogul balloon trains and not one single piece was ever recovered on the Foster ranch. Also, I found that the Mogul balloon train the Air Force implied was responsible for the Roswell incident had never flown and the Air Force knew it.

That is why there are no flight records for Mogul balloon train #4.

It wasn't a secret aircraft that crashed at Roswell. Since the military was totally unaware of any crash until notified by the sheriff, the object couldn't have been any type of secret aircraft, especially since days went by and the military was still unaware of any crash on the Foster ranch.

Recently, I went into details on another message board as to how the military keeps its secrets, and I covered how the military keeps secrets even from the eyes of those who already possess Top Secret clearances on certain so-called secret bases.

To sum it up, if you are attached to a secret base and you do not have the need to know nor clearance for certain classified projects, even your Top Secret clearance won't allow you to see what is going on behind closed doors on that secret base.

Because, even the Project Mogul and Skyhook balloon teams were reporting 'flying saucers' over their area in New Mexico.

It couldn't have a secret aircraft because the military was not aware of any downed classified project of theirs at the time of the crash on the Foster ranch and it definitely wasn't a Mogul balloon train either. The balloon trains were no more classified than a typical weather balloon, so all I can say is that the Air Force did a brilliant job of pulling another false story over the eyes of the public.

To this very day, the military continues to cover-up the Roswell incident. Even Congressman Steven Schiff (R.,N.M.) was amazed of how the Air Force blocked his attempts to investigate the Roswell incident for himself. You can read his comments here on page 52 of 194.

http://www.gl.iit.edu/wadc/history/r...eport/Book.pdf

I wanted to add that one must be careful of those skeptical websites because they are known for providing bad information.

For an example, I was debating on another website where a Roswell debunker tried to discredit one of the Roswell military witnesses. It involved Kirtland AFB and the ability of the Air Force's C-54 to operate from that base. The debunker claimed the runway at Kirtland AFB was too short for the C-54 to operate from and that raised my eyebrows above my hairline. I later found that his reference came from the website of Tim Printy and that is what set the fireworks off.

I was already aware that the C-54 operated from time to time out of Kirtland, but apparently, the debunker stood his ground. As a result, I had to throw in some military history to back my claim that the C-54 was not only capable of flying out of kirtland AFB, but the larger, much heavier B-29 was capable as well. After all, the first atomic bomb components were flown from Kirtland AFB aboard Air Force C-54s and B-29s.

Afterwards, he took the information I supplied and asked Tim Printy for clarification since it was his website that claimed the C-54 was not capable of flying out of Kirtland.

You can read his correction on his own website. Read on down until you come to the red type.

http://members.aol.com/TPrinty/crews.html

In the case of a classified aerospace research project, I would not be surprised at all if the public-facing side of the Air Force really did not know about the crash.

I mean, how often does the military register its top-secret programs with its PR department? It's usually best if the public face can disavow knowledge with total sincerity.

I can see it now...

AIR FORCE PR OFFICE: Hello?

BLACK BOX BRIGADE: Yes, this is Joe, over at Area 51. We're testing a new airframe, top secret stuff. In fact, you're not even cleared to know about it.

AF PR: Okay... And how can we help you today?

BBB: Well, if anybody calls saying they saw a crash or picked up some debris from a crash site-

AF PR: Of course! We should say that we know nothing, right? No plane, no test flight, no crash, no nothing, as far as we're concerned, right?

BBB: Actually, we'd like you to politely explain that there was a test flight of a top secret aircraft, and that it crashed, and that's probably what the pieces are. Otherwise, people will start to think we're hiding alien spaceships.

AF PR: Are you sure the official Air Force line isn't "we have no idea what you're talking about", and let the public think whatever it wants?

BBB: No, that won't be necessary. Just remember: this project is classified, and this conversation never happened.

AF PR: I... understand.

The materials found were not consistent with any Mogul balloon train.

Well if you take the original witness descriptions.

Sounds balloon like to me.

__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

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