This is a breakoff from the Roswell thread, where it was claimed that TOP SECRET (TS) was "too low a classification" for anything to do with any possible "coverup" of an extraterrestial craft crashing at Roswell in 1947.

I maintain that TS IS the top level of classification for the US military, and that if any coverup did take place at Roswell (which I personally dispute), the information would still have been classified under the normal conventions (Secret, TS, etc) and again, within the normal conventions, have a codeword (SCI / SAP) applied.

I invite neverfly to have a look at this:

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/5200-1r/index.html

That's DoD 5200.1-R, INFORMATION SECURITY PROGRAMME. The Bible regarding security classifications.

I would ask neverfly to point out anywhere in that document it refers to a classification higher than TS. I'd expand that request to point out an official US government document that refers to a classification higher than TS.

Mods, request you move the relevent posts from the Roswell thread to this one.

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"For ignorance to reign, all it takes is for knowledgable people to say nothing"

Lonewulf

[QUOTE=MentalAvenger;891735]Actually, the debate about

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"For ignorance to reign, all it takes is for knowledgable people to say nothing"

Lonewulf

ill look at it later after i sleep tonight

but simply put the ONLY complaint you made in anything i said was that TS was too low a SC.
Well ill concede i may be wrong about the issue since i dont have ANY evidence to claim its NOT the highest
Since i dont have much DESIRE to try to prove its not
I was going off personal experience which In ITself was Limited
SO- it seemed TOO EASY that if i could get that Clearance- that ANYONE with it might Jostle into discovering Supposed UFO nature.
Ok if TS IS the highest then i invite you to Use that principle in cracking CT claims that UFO nonsense is labled Top Secret.

but heres MY PERSONAL ISSUE
your personal attack was extreme and not thought out.
had you in a CIVIL manner apporached that, it would have been MUCH better handled. i was wrong because i ALSO lost my temper and got defensive too quickly- at a biassed attack approach you gave.Frankly you acted like an (insert alternate name for donkey). this is an issue into which i have put very little thought and no real research into up until this moment. So its perfectly possible i was wrong- now i feel Stupider for having Vaguely mentioned it to begin with which could have been POLITELY refuted by you-
i got angry and disgusted first (also assumed you were a UFO Believer Desperately clinging to the notion that Top Secret labling PROVES the existance of UFO's) - instead of my higher intellect being appealed and that COULD have been avoided had you acted a little (little? a LOT) more courtiously in asking me WHY I said TOO LOW and what made me think that etc.

Ill have no part of this pointless thread- i think we have covered what the issue was- and what mistakes were made- and ill invite you vet of 20 years to Grow Up.
If you think im Harsh- think too about how you approached this to begin with and ill welcome your apology and we can talk Military in a Freindly manner (Which sorry to say us Military types Cant Seewm To Help but do ANYway... :P) it COULD have been settled in three maybe four posts in a civil way in the other forum and no hard feelings would have arisen.

i wasnt referring to that
i was referring to the fact that if UFO's were blabled Top Secret
and i had a TS clearance
it seems TOO LOW a clearance for something as BIG as UFO's
as well as (AGAIN) a vague notion there was Higher

Correct. TS is the highest classification for military use.

That's why I said you don't know, rather than you were lying. You have only limited experience; I can assure you that my experience is much broader. I cannot speak for the US services, but in Australia getting an upgrade is quite a tedious process. Standard entry checks give a sailor a RESTRICTED clearance, and an Officer a CONFIDENTIAL clearance. You then have to be upgraded if required. That involves supplying extensive background details, and checks through the Australian Federal Police and ASIO. An upgrade takes 6 months or so. Longer for upgrade to TS. Then there are two levels of TS: TS-NV (negative vet) and TS-PV (positive vet). The PV involves interviewing people who have known you, physically checking previous addresses, going through bank records, etc. That takes about 18 months to get - far from easy. You need a TS-PV clearance for access to certain information.

I do not have the need to know, so I won't have access to any such information if it exists. As I pointed out earlier, I am unaware of any claims by UFO researchers that involve documents purported to be US government in origin that have a higher classification than TS. If there is anything I have missed, I'd be grateful if you'd point it out to me.

I made no attack; I said you did not know - which you have admitted. I made no attacks on your character or behaviour. In fact, you are the one who has done that upon me (questioning my military service). My statements have been thought out, and are correct. If they are not - and you can prove they are not - I invite you to correct me.

No bias, no attack - I pointed out you were wrong.

And you accuse me of making ad homs?

Then you should do so in future before making such definitive statements.

You made the statement and I pointed out forcefully that you were wrong, based on my experience in the area under discussion. Don't make broad, unqualified statements unless you are sure of their validity.

You don't know my opinion on UFOs. I've made my opinion clear in the OP regarding Roswell.

I'm not the one who has bandied insults; I have not questioned your military service. I have sailors and Officers who don't really have a full understanding about the security classifications, getting upgrades, getting an administrative downgrade, the need-to-know principle, codeword material, etc. That is why I said (based on your statement) that you don't know.

Don't be so sensitive if someone points out that you have made an unintentional error.

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"For ignorance to reign, all it takes is for knowledgable people to say nothing"

Lonewulf

My father worked for several years (decades) as a concrete paver. Odds are fair that if you've driven on an interstate west of the Mississippi River that was redone in the last 20 years, he's had a hand in it. On company he worked for got a military contract at a base known for secrecy. This involved a background check for each member of the paving crew. This check took about 3 months and cost about $10,000. Those who passed were allowed access to the areas needed to complete the jobs. When not working they were mor or less confined to a small common area. Some of the guys had personal vehicles that were deemed to be security risks and these were not allowed on base at all. This is not a base where it likely that just anyone with even a Top Secret clearance could just pop in for a visit. It's also a place where it is very likely that all personel assigned there have a TS clearance, but are still restricted in where they can go.

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I'm not evil.
An evil person would do the things I think up.

That is NOT what you said- you were Insultery, derogartory you barely refrained from Vulgar language.

[QUOTE=Obviousman;891793]I cannot speak for the US services, but in Australia getting an upgrade is quite a tedious process. Standard entry checks give a sailor a RESTRICTED clearance, and an Officer a CONFIDENTIAL clearance. You then have to be upgraded if required. That involves supplying extensive background details, and checks through the Australian Federal Police and ASIO. An upgrade takes 6 months or so. Longer for upgrade to TS. Then there are two levels of TS: TS-NV (negative vet) and TS-PV (positive vet). The PV involves interviewing people who have known you, physically checking previous addresses, going through bank records, etc. That takes about 18 months to get - far from easy. You need a TS-PV clearance for access to certain information.[/QUOTW]
No you cannot speak for the US but you seemed to be trying to. Yes the process iS SImilar to that


i repeat (AGAIN) that i was not asking you for any UFO information classified as higher than TS. i dont know where you got that idea.
I mean that if You Know how TS works- then jus tthe Idea that UFOlogists making TS info claims you might be able to readily dispute thats all....

i can paste what you said and it was Nothing like that- nowhere NEAR that civil- had you said it that way it would have been MUCH less heated- you even incited a responce from MA- outside he said "Same to you "

read again your first post in response to mine and tell me that you didnt Stop Just Short of calling me a liar.


hmmm


NOW you say FORCEFULLY- Force was NOT needed in any way- you admit you overreacted and did NOT THINK OUT a proper Response
True i made a Broad statement and likely made myself look quite foolish in so doing. Learn from mistakes i guess....

Again you make it sound so polite- but you know better. you know you didnt act that way. you SOUNDED like you questioned my military service. i only questioned yours because of your Vague comments- i wanted to be clear if you were in a position to say you can speak from personal experience.
im not one to beat around the Bush- you were a Jerk. if i called you a great guy when you acted like a great guy... then you would happily accept that... Well this time around you were a Jerk- im sorry but i dont paint pretty pictures i tell it like it is
i was a jerk too..
Yes i Really SHould have Stepped back and cooled off before replying- i was FURIOUS! Sensitive? im not really a sensitive person. Some things like my Military service i take very Seriously- as any soldier does with PRIDE. i myself over reacted too.
but im not so sensitive to react unless i feel attacked- and i think you are well aware of what you said that brought this heat on
we both know it was on both sides.
NOW you tell it like you were so calm and polite- and again- you know better. cmon...
THIS posting im quoting now is MUCH more polite than any so far. im left to GUESS that what i said to you may have sunk in a bit and you thought about it....
Given as such-ill simply accept that as you SEEM to be aware that your original HOGWASH comment was too extreme and you are now making an effort to be polite.
And in your favor -outside influences in my life were also not helping me to think rationally or clearly either.
SO........ lets leave this one behind- im sure that on another thread and topic we probably would have gotten along just fine(as i said in the last one- military folks cant help but sit and tell war stories)
But i learned something here- i hope you did too- HOW you approach a person can make a VERY Big difference as to how the converstaion will proceed from there. You might have simply asked me Hey neverfly- Why would You say TS isnt the highest? when i gave my response- you could have detailed in ONE post what took you three what with the arguin. and then i would have said Hmmm you may be right then. and the other things i said in later posts.. but it took Too long it was heated
and there was a Much better way to aprroach that.
im saying that in a friendly way- not insultery- Just think about it- i have to learn that very same lesson too...
if i made typoes-forgive- this is LONG and i dont feel like re-reading it.
peace?

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath an step back for a bit. This thread is getting heated and out of hand - nobody wants to be banned or warned Grab a cup of java and count to ten

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

I stand by all my statements.

And, FWIIW, I respect anyone of any nation who has worn the uniform - especially those who have worn it with pride.

Lastly, I do believe in UFOs; I simply believe that there has been no convincing evidence to back that belief. I won't change my belief in their existence; but I won't maintain that there is any solid evidence to support my belief.

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"For ignorance to reign, all it takes is for knowledgable people to say nothing"

Lonewulf

well i have nothing further to add then
but what respect i may have had for you has diminished Obviousman- future posts in my direction are likely to be ignored unless you can stand by POLITE and Civil statements in the future.

Let's keep it civilised folks. I won't hesitate to close this thread if things stay this nasty.

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Climate Change Australia

Trying to, Kashi. If you think I have insulted people, I am more than willing to offer an apology for it has been unintentional.

I won't, however, retract or back down from things I know to be true and to which there has been no contradicting evidence (security classifications).

Yep, stubborn I know - but if I am wrong I'd like to be shown it... and then I will retract my statements without reserve.

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"For ignorance to reign, all it takes is for knowledgable people to say nothing"

Lonewulf

A TS/SCI clearance is the highest level of clearance granted, but having a TS/SCI clearance does not mean that you have the right to access all TS/SCI information. You must also demonstrate a "need-to-know" (in quotes because it's a term of art) that information.

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Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

I might have missed an explaination to this; what does the SCI in TS/SCI mean?

I agree with Serenitude, plus a thing to add; this is not a topic worth getting angry at each other over, much less banned. We're all friends here (well, most of us).

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This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

SCI = sensitive compartmented information

The facility to view/discuss such information is a SCIF

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"I have a cunning plan that cannot fail."
S. Baldrick

That's right. To help explain further...

The classification of information tells you what effect unauthorised disclosure may have. In general, most information (signals, documents, etc) has a classification ranging from UNCLAS / FOUO to TS.

Some information, however, may be particularly sensitive. It might have to do with satellite surveillance, SIGINT, HUMINT, or nuclear weapons technology, etc. Because of the sensitivity of that information, it is not to be widely distributed or available. It's availablity is limited to those people who have a "need to know'.

To limit its availability, a codeword or caveat is associated with it. Let's take the fictional example given by the author Tom Clancy in his book CARDINAL OF THE KREMLIN.

The US has a highly placed spy within the government of the USSR. The overall programme (excuse my adherance to Australian spelling) has the codeword of CARDINAL.

If you are briefed into the CARDINAL programme (known as a Special Access programme - SAP), you understand that the information comes from a highly placed source within the USSR government. No other details are given - just a "highly placed source".

Although you have a TS clearance, you might only be cleared up to CONFIDENTIAL level of CARDINAL material.

How is this done?

Each classification is given a specific codeword / caveat (otherwise known as Special Compartmentalised Information - SCI).

Some information might be classified CONFIDENTIAL - BISHOP. This tells you that it is from the CARDINAL programme, but has been 'sanitised' to a degree which means if it is released without proper authorisation, the damage is limited (most likely that the source will not be compromised). So you know the information comes from a high level source, and is probably reliable.

Higher level information, perhaps called SECRET - VICAR, reveals more about where the information came from. That information might tell you that it had to have been overheard from a Defence Council meeting - though you don't know if that was from a listening device or a person at the meeting, etc. The use of a CARDINAL programme codeword tells you that it was probably from a person at that meeting.

Even higher information might be classified TOP SECRET - POPE. This information might have only been available from discussions within the Politburo, and so reveals more about how it was obtained. Unauthorised disclosure of this information might seriously endanger the "highly placed source", so it is protected to a far greater degree. It identifiies who might have released that information.

So you might have a TS clearance, and have been indoctrinated into the CARDINAL programme but only limited to the CONFIDENTIAL - BISHOP level. Your TS clearance does NOT mean you see TS-POPE material because you are not indoctrinated for it. It means that anyoneone with a TS clearance, likewise, does not see it. This ensures that you only see what you need to see to do your job effectively.

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"For ignorance to reign, all it takes is for knowledgable people to say nothing"

Lonewulf

So to summarise - and use a different example:

CONFIDENTIAL - BICYCLE might tell you that the information comes from SIGINT means.

SECRET - PEDAL might tell you that the information comes from SIGINT means, involving a listening station of advanced capability.

TOP SECRET - HANDLEBAR might tell you that the information comes from SIGINT means, from a specially-equipped aircraft that is designed to eavesdrop upon selected sources.

Regardlessless of your clearance, you have to be indoctrinated into each of the levels (codewords) in order to 'legally' receive them.

Hopefully this might explain why TS classification would be sufficient for any supposed Roswell material - along with a SCI / SAP codeword / caveat.

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"For ignorance to reign, all it takes is for knowledgable people to say nothing"

Lonewulf

A TS/SCI clearance is the highest level of clearance granted, but having a TS/SCI clearance does not mean that you have the right to access all TS/SCI information. You must also demonstrate a "need-to-know" (in quotes because it's a term of art) that information.

Actually, this isn't quite right. There is a level of clearance higher than SCI. It's old name was SAP (special access program) but I think it's known as SAR (special access required) today. These are the "behind the green door" vault guys. Even a SCIF has to have special areas to handle those higher classifications.

I have a TS/SCI clearance with two compartments. That doesn't mean I'm cleared to any SCI info even within those compartments. I still have to have a "need to know." As for the other compartments, I'm not cleared for them at all, nor for SAP/SAR. This makes it a challenge to do my job sometimes but we adapt as best we can. Usually, it means meeting in a SCIF with someone who has the proper clearances and who decides what he can or can't tell me.

I believe "Q" is above Top Secret. Even the President of the United States does not have access to "Q" level data, as he does not have a need to know.....kind of a spoof on James Bond's "Q" It is difficult to work with Q level people unless you, too, have been cleared. Pete.

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A third rate theory forbids.
A second rate theory explains after the fact.
A first rate theory predicts.
A. Lomonosov

i think what you said (though we DID cover SAP) Clears some confusion..
My stance was simply that i too had a TS clearance- and logical train of thought led me to think that IF there were UFO's in some kind of Cover up... TS was insufficient a security clearance. It seems too risky that someone with the clearance could crack the Codeword and access material which wasnt intended for their eyes. it seems Too (EGO BOOSTER!! LOL) that i devalued the value of a TS security clearance simple cuz a lil guy like me had one...<chuckle>
But Yes MANY times i had to meet with another soldier or officer who had Clearance to view Additional Files needed when i needed to make a decision on a complex issue. i had to go to a "higher level". I didnt think much about it- I was focused on the job at hand.. So TY for clearing that up I was Wrong in my train of logic.

what about Z? or was that just an ant?:P

I've never come across it myself, but it would appear that a Q clearance relates to nuclear material, and is the DoE equivalent of TS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_clearance

http://labs.ucop.edu/internet/securi...20Briefing.doc

http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GAO/T-RCED-89-14

http://www.boulder.nist.gov/security/Q&L.instr.htm

etc

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"For ignorance to reign, all it takes is for knowledgable people to say nothing"

Lonewulf

Obviousman- are you saying that TS is the direct label- and that things such as Q refer to compartments as Larry Jacks put it? im visuallizing this as a Sideways thing more than an above...
For Example i am a mammal- and im a human not a cat- humans Cant breed with cats - Nuclear Material is Top Secret- its labled Q- a person without Q clearance cant read it. is that a simple analogy or am i way off?

The POTUS has the only absolute security clearance. There is no national security information that they are restricted from accessing. All security classifications stem from the POTUS' authority as CINC - though some information is required to be classified by acts of Congress. Of course, TS is the highest primary classification whose existence is unclassified.

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In the progress of this discussion I shall endeavor to give a satisfactory answer to all the objections which shall have made their appearance, that may seem to have any claim to your attention.

Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 1

I think the briefing document explains it best:

http://labs.ucop.edu/internet/securi...20Briefing.doc

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"For ignorance to reign, all it takes is for knowledgable people to say nothing"

Lonewulf

yes thats why i asked
Because according that Q clearance isnt an "above" clearance- its a Clearance to the existing for the nature of an investigation.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

A Q clearance is issued by the US DoE. It is equivalent to a TS clearance, but is specific for nuclear-related material.

I don't follow what you mean by investigation... do you mean the background checks to get a Q clearance?

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"For ignorance to reign, all it takes is for knowledgable people to say nothing"

Lonewulf

NOpe my fault
i MisRead what it said on the site.

Hi, What people should understand is that anyone who requires it, will get a thorough back ground check, after which the agency will issue the clearance.
But the real item of interest is the "Need to know". Without this, I don't care if you are Jack armstrong,the All American Boy, you won't get or know anything about secret information. Sometimes, like Martha Stewart says....
"It's a good thing!".
You know....even a game of "Shutes and Ladders" has rules.
Best regards, Dan

A Q clearance isn't related to a specific topic. It's simply the DOE equivalent of TS. L is the DOE equivalent of Secret.