http://www.gulfherald.com/news/article.asp?newsid=2985

I'm just wondering about this garbage of time "flows" being 30 times faster on the Sun than the Earth and being slower on the Moon and Mars.

(Sorry, if this has been posted before.)

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~AstroMike

I had a very lengthy conversation with the author of this article, Der Voron, on the related topic of spacecraft propulsion. Basically, Voron is about as incompetent as anyone can be and still tie his own shoes. His claim to fame is having written a book on UFOs. He also claims Columbia was shot down by space aliens because it still uses "oil engines" instead of his newfangled gravity propulsion device, which he offered to sell me.

Der Voron claims he has an I.Q. of around 165 (185 if you exclude mathematics). However, he has no academic degrees. And he begged me not to tell anyone about it. Can you say "snake-oil salesman"?

Basically, nothing he says is worth listening to.

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"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Ugh. It sounds like the author learned just a little bit about GR, just enough to be dangerous. He's got it backwards, for one thing. Under a gravitation field, time is compressed. More gravity -> more compression. The ultimate expression of this is in a black hole. As you approach the singularity of a BH, gravity approaches infinity, and time approaches zero.

His second error is that within your frame of reference, time is the same. Let's assume his factor of 30 for Sol is correct (for the sake of argument). Put a hypothetical clock and an observer on the chromosphere of the sun. The observer on the sun sees time ticking away just fine, at a normal rate. His metabolic processes are fine. Etc. We on the Earth, looking at him and his clock see that things are proceeding 30 times slower than here. If he subjectively stayed on the sun for one standard Earth-day, he'd come back to see that a month went by.

All his measuring devices would not show any change. It's only when compared to devices outside his frame of reference that anything hinky appears.

This guy's use of GR to attempt to disprove Apollo is a first for me, but it ranks pretty high on my BS-ometer.

Ugh.

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Jeff Schwarz
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Argh!! They booby-trapped their sun!!****--Invader ZIM

Oil engines? The Space Shuttle doesn't use oil as a propellant anywhere.

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Freedom For Fission A breath of fresh Iodine-131

Oil engines? The Space Shuttle doesn't use oil as a propellant anywhere.

Right. English is not Voron's first language and so he occasionally coins some amusing phrases, probably by accident. But I conversed with him by e-mail probably three to four times a day for about three weeks. I developed a pretty good picture of him. Basically, he's a charlatan and he knows it. I don't believe his "165 I.Q." claim for a minute. I've known people with that level of measured intelligence and I have to mentally run like the wind to keep up with them. Der Voron, on the other hand, would have to mentally hustle to keep up with a bright high school student.

Want some more Voronity? Try http://www.weeklyuniverse.com/skies/skies2.htm Be warned: reading this article may cause you to curse and throw things at your computer. I'll have a review of this one up on Clavius in a short while.

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"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

I got down as far as the bit where he says that a rocket lifting off in a one-sixth g-field would need to be one-sixth the size of a Saturn or whatever.

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Freedom For Fission A breath of fresh Iodine-131

Communist Vampires ?!!!!!!

Arggggh

<Spit> I can't get the taste out of my mouth :x

What a mess of an article! At least the giggle factor was high. If I had come across this by accident, I would have thought it was a tongue in cheek attempt to make the hoaxers look ridiculous (Like they need more help).

Jay, I look forward to your debunking. I also wanted to thank you for your contributions here and on Clavius. I've learned a great deal. For me, the one positive aspect of this whole Moon Hoax nonsense has been the rekindling of my interest in the history of the Apollo program. Your site was a great place to start.

Weekly Universe

A Quantum Report of Transdimensional News and Analysis


Just where you'd expect a serious researcher to publish his findings, eh?

Quantum? That means it's unpredictable. We can't truly know what it's about.

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Freedom For Fission A breath of fresh Iodine-131

If I had come across this by accident, I would have thought it was a tongue in cheek attempt to make the hoaxers look ridiculous (Like they need more help).

If Der Voron is pulling their legs, he's pretty committed to it. But he's the same way -- worse, actually -- in private. He really is that clueless. What I want to know is how people who are so patently incompetent can get "air time". I can understand why the Weekly World News or some other such rag would be interested in it, but how can these people convince publishers that their material has any value?

I also wanted to thank you for your contributions here and on Clavius. I've learned a great deal. For me, the one positive aspect of this whole Moon Hoax nonsense has been the rekindling of my interest in the history of the Apollo program.

Me too, and we're not the only ones. If you haven't yet ordered Virtual Apollo, do so immediately. I spoke with its author Scott Sullivan, and he said his interest in the project was also kindled by conspiracy theories. He was surprised at the claim that "the blueprints" had been destroyed and so he went around to see what was really available. The result is a finely-detailed digital model of the Apollo CSM that he has constructed using the Pro/ENGINEER CAD system, based on original drawings.

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"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

For the same reason people like Dennis Lee get people to give them cash for their 'Free Energy' machines. they like to think they have 'inside knowledge' that 'They' don't want you to have.

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'The eye can only see what the mind is prepared to accept'

More wisdom from Der Voron:

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"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Ironically both Dennis Lee and Bart Sibrel seem to believe they're on missions from God.

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"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Pretensious nurks.

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Freedom For Fission A breath of fresh Iodine-131

<gasp> read it... no knuckle marks on monitor... didn't spew coffee on keyboard... respiration... and heartbeat... almost normal again... <huff> <puff> <phew>

BUT WHAT IN THE NAME OF DOWIE AND ELLA WHEELER WILCOX IS " They develop the power of about 10-20mn KWt."SUPPOSED TO MEAN?!!!?

My head! My head! My...<pop> :roll:

Thanks Jay! It looks fascinating. I just ordered it. I've recently purchased Eldon C. Hall's "Journey to the Moon: The History of the Apollo Guidance Computer" and Thomas J. Kelly's "Moon Lander: How We Developed the Apollo Lunar Module". Lot's of good material for the summer reading list.

You're going to love both of those books.

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"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

BUT WHAT IN THE NAME OF DOWIE AND ELLA WHEELER WILCOX IS " They develop the power of about 10-20mn KWt."SUPPOSED TO MEAN?!!!?

I asked him about it. "mn" is for "million", and "KWt." is for kilowatts (properly abbreviated "kW"). Whatever. His problems go way deeper than suffixes and units.

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"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Speechless at this garbage- I wasn't going to debunk it, but it is so stupid that I just have to add a few comments for giggles:

As far I know, the Titan is a U.S. rocket. Maybe it's changed hands recently.

At least this guy understands the difference between the CM and LM, unlike my favorite hoaxist.

Are we on Earth on the Moon? He keeps switiching. There is a difference between the requrements for launching into the LEO and the requirements for launching into lunar oribt. It's not as if gravity is the only factor; there is no air, and the lunar launching sites were usually near the lunar equator (at least Apollo 11's was, and that's the mission he's using). And you don't just divide the mass of a rocket by 6 to find out how much less take-off mass you need on the Moon. also, he fails to note that only the ascent stage lifted off and the ascent engine, with a thrust of 10,000 pounds IIRC (correct me, I know that can't be right), was simply adequate for launching the ascent stage. He's also mixing up mass and weight so much that I'm getting lost.

By using the descent stage. What, may I ask, sir, would you need a launch site on the Moon for? There is no ground crew, no fueling, no rollout, no erection of the rocket required.

Gasp. This guy is really more nuts by an order of magnitude than Nasascam. He keeps switching around the body we are on - but this quote contains my favorite statement. I have absolutely no idea what to say to this idiocy:

We are in one-sixth G! The lack of an atmosphere makes it easier to land- no air to worry about! Air resistance would not appreciably slow the LM, and it was not a factor on the LLTV and the LLRV. Let me say again: IT IS MUCH EASIER TO LAND IN ONE-SIXTH G THAN IN ONE G.

Ugh. There was no "launching site" other than the LM. And there are countless photos of