Chatroom
 

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum > Space and Astronomy > Conspiracy Theories
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

   

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #31 (permalink)  
Old 28-March-2007, 10:36 PM
Nicolas's Avatar
Nicolas Nicolas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Belgium
Posts: 11,232
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tofu View Post
I'm convinced that somewhere in the universe, an alien with awesome power and way too much time on its hands is using nuclear weapons to print dot-matrix porn on Earth-sized worlds.
Alien porn? That's when they actually are wearing something more than just a glass bell-jar?
__________________
To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old 28-March-2007, 10:56 PM
davidlpf's Avatar
davidlpf davidlpf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: St Stephen NB
Posts: 2,926
Default

Well think why do so many people claimed to be probed in a certain area when they are abducted.
__________________
If it's just us, it seems like an awful waste of space.
Contact Carl Sagan
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old 28-March-2007, 11:06 PM
Daryl71 Daryl71 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 245
Default

So, after nearly 500 pages of tedium, I finally discovered Cook's two "smoking guns:" An anonymous call to the White House scheduling office on January 27, 1986, and an interview Cook conducted with Reagan's astrologist 15 years ago, in which he told him not to launch the Shuttle. I didn't even pay for this book, and I feel ripped off.
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old 29-March-2007, 12:06 AM
JayUtah's Avatar
JayUtah JayUtah is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,922
Default

Sounds to me like Richard Cook is a media hound. He got caught 20 years ago, backpedalled from everything under oath, and now 20 years later he's trying to jump back on the bandwagon hoping to get back in the limelight.
__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old 29-March-2007, 10:53 PM
KingNor's Avatar
KingNor KingNor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 125
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Sounds to me like Richard Cook is a media hound. He got caught 20 years ago, backpedalled from everything under oath, and now 20 years later he's trying to jump back on the bandwagon hoping to get back in the limelight.
probably isn't looking at enough human on human dot matrix porn.
__________________
...the poor square has to say, "Well, I was in some other mystic dimension, called UP!" -C.S.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -C.S.

Remember, you just have facts, you have mere facts. -worzel (said with sarcazm)

"Pain is just weakness leaving the body." -unknown
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old 30-March-2007, 02:26 AM
Daryl71 Daryl71 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 245
Default

Here's the safe-for-public consumption review I wrote last night. Sorry, I already returned it to the library, so I can't answer any more questions about the book's content. If there are any problems with the review itself, I can always fix those.

Quote:
On the morning of January 28, 1986, the space shuttle Challenger blew up 73 seconds after launch, killing all seven on board. Well, technically it "broke up," and at least three of the crew survived until the crew cabin hit the ocean, but let's not play semantics here. The real issue was simple: why did NASA launch even after repeated warnings about the safety of the Shuttle's SRBs (Solid Rocket Boosters), and who was to blame for the disaster? Many people have tried to answer this question. Richard Cook is the most recent.

Richard Cook started working for the government in 1970 in the Civil Service Commission and the FDA. In 1985 he came to NASA and became a financial analyst for the comptroller's office, focusing on budgeting for the Solid Rocket Boosters, External Tank, and the in-development Centaur rocket booster. In June of 1985 he wrote a memorandum describing some of the potential failure scenarios for the SRBs, which he leaked to the New York Times after the disaster. Cook testified before the Presidential Commission (aka the Rogers Commission) on the Space Shuttle Challenger Accident on February 11, 1986.

Excuse me for sounding bitter, but Challenger Revealed: An Insider's Account of How the Reagan Administration Caused the Greatest Tragedy of the Space Age is perhaps the mostly poorly researched, boring, self-serving, ax-grinding piece of twaddle between two hard covers I've read in a long time. It's already received two glowing reviews on Amazon.com, though I wonder if those reviewers actually read the book, or questioned the author's credentials.

Where do I start with Challenger Revealed? The authors' main thesis revolves around the militarization of the space program, Ronald Reagan's pressure to launch, and a multi-layered cover-up to hide the true facts of the accident. In his mind, the military forced an unreasonable launch schedule on NASA, who were forced to cut corners regarding their safety protocols. Reagan wanted Challenger to launch that morning so he could hold a brief telephone conversation with teacher-in-space Christa McAuliffe during his State of the Union address. After the disaster, there was a huge cover-up involving the entire Presidential Commission, several members of congress, the President, and apparently dozens of people at NASA, in a clumsy attempt to save face.

This wouldn't sound that ridiculous if it weren't for Cook's inability to grasp certain aspects of the Shuttle hardware. In one of his paranoid rants, he describes the military's intent to convert the Shuttle into an orbiting battlestation, armed with city-incinerated lasers, equipment to guide nuclear warheads, and sensors for spying on the enemy. For starters, the Shuttle is can only spend about three weeks in orbit, travels on a predictable path, and is incapable of carrying enough fuel for a "city incinerating laser."

He doesn't quite grasp the SRBs either, suggesting that they should have been jettisonable at a moment's notice if any problem occurred. Never mind that together they generated five million pounds of thrust, and suddenly jettisoning them would have torn the shuttle to pieces or something equally disastrous.

Challenger Revealed is also poorly referenced and immensely self-serving. Despite being more than 500 pages long, there's no bibliography whatsoever, and the list of notes contains only 95 entries. I've always been distrustful of books with weak sources, and this is no exception. Time and again Cook paints himself as the tarnished, whistle-blowing hero who could have saved Challenger if only NASA had listened to him. He even includes a letter sent to him by an old lady calling him an angel for leaking his June 1985 SRB memo!

Curiously, when called to testify in 1986, Cook said he had no part in leaking the memo. He even described NASA as the most efficient bureaucracy he'd ever worked for. Did he lie under oath, and is he now attempting to backpedal his way into being a media darling again? And what are his credentials, anyway? He left NASA in March 1986, having never risen above financial analyst. Is he truly the most well-informed individual on the subject? If this book was "mostly finished" in 1991, why did he wait so long to publish it?

On the reading level, Challenger Revealed is absolutely tedious. The entire middle section consists almost entirely of excerpts from the transcripts of the Rogers Commission, occasionally interrupted by the author's commentary. Strip away the conspiracy and you're left with a boring book about a faulty rubber seal. It's also incredibly partisan, with multiple references to the military-industrial complex, the right-wing plot to take over NASA, and a shadowy "Conservative Movement."

Speaking of partisanship, after grueling through 476 pages of tedium, Cook finally reveals his smoking gun. 15 years ago, he conducted a brief interview with Reagan's chief astrologist, who told Cook that he advised the President not to launch that day, but did anyway. Without any reference, Cook could have made this story up. Apparently, the red button under the president's desk is labeled "Launch Space Shuttle For Politically Expedient Purpose."

Now, I'm not exactly fond of Reagan (put down your knifes, people!), but it's no secret that presidents occasionally do foolhardy things in the name of boosting popularity. Then again, after reading the book Disaster on Hurricane Katrina, nothing really surprises me. Cook's "smoking gun" is about as powerful as a rusty .22 caliber revolver. Challenger Revealed is full of these instances ("Back in August 1985 a secretary told a coworker who told be that something wasn't right with the secondary seal") that don't really support his argument.

I could rant at some length about this book's problems (such as the author's ignorance that the Shuttle was designed to replace all current launch vehicles, and would have to carry military payloads anyway), but I imagine I'm starting to bore some people. Stay away from Challenger Revealed. It's a wretched mess that will probably only appeal to crazed woo-woos that think that men never walked on the Moon. I imagine Mr. Cook is already working on that book!

Challenger Revealed was published by Thunder's Mouth Press in January 2007 as a hardcover book. It is 544 pages long, has 23 chapters, and 16 pages of black & white photographs. Retailing at $28.95, it is far more expensive on a page-for-page basis than regular toilet paper.
If Mr. Cook reads this forum, I'm probably going to get a nasty e-mail sometime in the future.
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old 30-March-2007, 11:50 AM
Donnie B.'s Avatar
Donnie B. Donnie B. is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 5,229
Default

You asked for comments on the review. I found a few grammar and structure issues, noted below.

In one of his paranoid rants, he describes the military's intent to convert the Shuttle into an orbiting battlestation, armed with city-incinerated lasers...,
I'm sure you meant to write "city-incinerating lasers".

...suddenly jettisoning them would have torn the shuttle to pieces or something equally disastrous.
Probably should read either "...done something equally disastrous." or "...had equally disastrous results."

...Cook paints himself as the tarnished, whistle-blowing hero...
People rarely describe themselves as "tarnished heroes", since that implies a person with flaws. He might might consider himself a "defamed hero" or "slandered hero", though, if that's what you meant.

He left NASA in March 1986, having never risen above financial analyst.
This is a bit of a quibble, but saying that he "never rose above" that position implies that he had higher ambitions but failed to achieve them. Do we know this? It might be better to say that he "held the position of" financial analyst, which is more to the point (i.e. he was not an engineer).

If this book was "mostly finished" in 1991, why did he wait so long to publish it?
I wouldn't bother with this point. It's pretty irrelevant, and there are many reasons why a book is not published that are well outside the author's control.

...after grueling through 476 pages of tedium...
'Grueling' is not a verb! How about 'wading' or 'slogging' through 476 grueling pages?

...Reagan's chief astrologist...
The word you want here is 'astrologer'. AFAIK there's no such thing as an 'astrologist'.

...(put down your knifes, people!)...
'knives'.

Hope these were helpful.
__________________
Bring back Firefly!

"It is quite clear that Occam's razor does not sharpen in your pyramid." (Nicolas)

"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." (Paul Simon)
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old 30-March-2007, 04:06 PM
JayUtah's Avatar
JayUtah JayUtah is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,922
Default

This is a bit of a quibble, but saying that he "never rose above" that position implies that he had higher ambitions but failed to achieve them.

I agree the wording is misleading. Since Cook was at NASA for only about a year I wouldn't expect a promotion. I interpreted the statement as I believe it was intended, and as you note in your correction: that Cook was ever only a budget analyst and never claimed or displayed competence in engineering or safety analysis. I would focus on that, and add that Cook's boss said under oath that he regarded Cook in the summer of 1985 as still something of a newbie who needed some further guidance in how to engage engineering and management aspects of the agency.

That inexperience is at odds with how Cook has painted himself subsequently: as the lone voice of reason crying in a wilderness of mismanagement and negligence.

...there are many reasons why a book is not published that are well outside the author's control.

Agreed, but this case raises specific, credible suspicion. Since Cook seems to have contradicted his sworn testimony from 1986, it is reasonable to suspect that he wants to distance himself from the consequences of that contradiction. He may, for example, have waited until he was no longer subject to prosecution for perjury before Congress. As a long-time government employee, he may want to have waited until his retirement in order to protect his pension from administrative actions less severe than prosecution. And Ronald Reagan is now dead, and can't respond to Cook's allegations.

When someone changes his story on a controversial topic, the timing according to which he changes it is not irrelevant.
__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old 03-April-2007, 06:50 AM
Astrowannabe Astrowannabe is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 60
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl71 View Post
It is 544 pages long, has 23 chapters, and 16 pages of black & white photographs. Retailing at $28.95, it is far more expensive on a page-for-page basis than regular toilet paper.
OMG, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at that!!!!

What an analogy!!
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old 03-April-2007, 02:41 PM
jrkeller's Avatar
jrkeller jrkeller is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Houston near the Johnson Space Center
Posts: 2,651
Default

Daryl71 are you going to post your review on amazon?

One thing to add. If Reagan was going to use the Space Shuttle program for giant space lasers, that would violate the Outer Space Treaty and I can't see thousands of NASA employees going along with that.
Reply With Quote
  #41 (permalink)  
Old 03-April-2007, 04:51 PM
HenrikOlsen's Avatar
HenrikOlsen HenrikOlsen is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Denmark 55.6773° N 12.3610° E
Posts: 5,080
Send a message via MSN to HenrikOlsen Send a message via Yahoo to HenrikOlsen
Default

Don't expect it to stay if you put it there, Amazon is there to sell books so they have a tendency to dislike and remove negative reviews.
__________________
"God bless thee, my son; I will give thee the greatest jewel I have ...
"The end of our foundation is the knowledge of causes, and secret motions of things; and the enlarging of the bounds of human empire, to the effecting of all things possible."
Francis Bacon, The New Atlantis
Trying to make sense of computers, The Error Log.
Reply With Quote
  #42 (permalink)  
Old 03-April-2007, 04:58 PM
Christopher Ferro's Avatar
Christopher Ferro Christopher Ferro is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: The Space Coast
Posts: 1,270
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen View Post
Don't expect it to stay if you put it there, Amazon is there to sell books so they have a tendency to dislike and remove negative reviews.
Has this been verified?

CJSF
__________________
Two years ago moved from my town
I was looking up past the city lights
But the city lights got in my way

See the constellation ride across the sky
No cigar, no lady on his arm
Just a guy made of dots and lines

-from "See The Constellation"
by They Might Be Giants
Reply With Quote
  #43 (permalink)  
Old 03-April-2007, 05:40 PM
Daryl71 Daryl71 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 245
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrkeller View Post
Daryl71 are you going to post your review on amazon?
Probably not. I'm an Epinions guy through and through. Haven't written any reviews for Amazon in a long time. Besides, they have a 1,000 word maximum, which I sometimes exceed even when reviewing the most mundane things imaginable.

I'm not sure if the five-star reviews on Amazon are coming from people who might question Cook's writing, the incredibly skimpy research sources, or the complete lack of a bibliography. The book could have been 99% accurate but I'd still wonder just what Cook was thinking with that "orbital Death Star" shtick.

Perhaps you or Jay (or any of a number of others) might want to read and review this book so I don't sound like a crazed lone dissenter. Unfortunately, both of you are probably still recovering from Dark Moon, so maybe you should give yourselves a break.

Quote:
Don't expect it to stay if you put it there, Amazon is there to sell books so they have a tendency to dislike and remove negative reviews.
I'm not so sure of that. Amazon has some pretty obvious troll reviewers (one of the more notorious being a neo-nazi who gives one star to any book praises the British military in WWII...) who never get banned. If any of them wrote for Epinions, they'd have their membership revoked in a couple weeks.

Last edited by Daryl71; 03-April-2007 at 06:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #44 (permalink)  
Old 03-April-2007, 06:23 PM
Eta C's Avatar
Eta C Eta C is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The Heart of Darkness
Posts: 1,591
Default

I've already quoted Ambrose Bierce once today (see the quotes thread in OTB) but it sounds like this book deserves his famous one sentence review. "The covers of this book are too far apart."

Great job Daryl. I admire your intestinal fortitude in finishing the thing.
__________________
"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - William Thompson, 1st Baron Lord Kelvin

"If it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be, but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic!" - Tweedledee

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. - Wolfgang Pauli
Reply With Quote
  #45 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2007, 05:13 PM
jrkeller's Avatar
jrkeller jrkeller is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Houston near the Johnson Space Center
Posts: 2,651
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen View Post
Don't expect it to stay if you put it there, Amazon is there to sell books so they have a tendency to dislike and remove negative reviews.
I've posted some pretty harsh reviews on moon hoax related material and it is still all there, so I'd expect Daryl's to still be there. I've even seen reviews where the reviewer admits to not reading (or seeing) the book, but provides a review anyway and it still stays.
Reply With Quote
  #46 (permalink)  
Old 04-April-2007, 05:21 PM
JayUtah's Avatar
JayUtah JayUtah is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,922
Default

None of my negative reviews on Amazon has been removed, and I'm not kind to conspiracy books.
__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base
Reply With Quote
  #47 (permalink)  
Old 05-April-2007, 02:26 PM
jrkeller's Avatar
jrkeller jrkeller is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Houston near the Johnson Space Center
Posts: 2,651
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl71 View Post
Perhaps you or Jay (or any of a number of others) might want to read and review this book so I don't sound like a crazed lone dissenter. Unfortunately, both of you are probably still recovering from Dark Moon, so maybe you should give yourselves a break.
It's been while since I read Dark Moon so I think I'll be OK to look at this book. The last moon hoax/conspiracy book I read was William Brian's Moongate. While it is as bad as the rest, it at least it had some equations that I could evaluate. Right now I'm wading through Rene Ralph's book, NASA MOONED AMERICA and SECRETS OF OUR SPACESHIP MOON by Don Wilson.
Reply With Quote
  #48 (permalink)  
Old 05-April-2007, 04:50 PM
JayUtah's Avatar
JayUtah JayUtah is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,922
Default

Where did you find a copy of Wilson? That thing's been out of print for years.
__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base
Reply With Quote
  #49 (permalink)  
Old 05-April-2007, 05:45 PM
jrkeller's Avatar