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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 25-March-2007, 06:04 PM
Daryl71 Daryl71 is offline
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Default New Book on Challenger

A few days ago I checked out a new book from the library titled Challenger Revealed: An Insider's Account of How the Reagan Administration Caused the Greatest Tragedy of the Space Age by Richard Cook. So far I'm about two-thirds of the way in, and my first impressions are pretty bad. It's pretty tedious (endless accounts of the Rogers Commission), self-serving (the author leaked a memo he'd written about the SRBs back in June 1985 to the New York Times, and acts like he, single-handedly, could have saved Challenger), and the central theory doesn't make much sense. Cook insists that the Shuttles would eventually be converted into weapons platforms that could guide nuclear warheads, shoot down satellites and incinerate cities with lasers. He doesn't give any sources for these statements.

In fact, this is probably one of the most poorly-sourced books I've ever read. Cook doesn't even include a bibliography, and the list of notes has only 95 entries. I recently read Stalin and the Bomb, which was 100 pages shorter, and had 2,100 notes! I suppose I'll just have to struggle through the last third so I can complain about it with more authority. It's like one of those movies you keep watching just to see if they get better, but never does!
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Old 25-March-2007, 06:27 PM
Grashtel Grashtel is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl71 View Post
Cook insists that the Shuttles would eventually be converted into weapons platforms that could guide nuclear warheads, shoot down satellites and incinerate cities with lasers. He doesn't give any sources for these statements.
Does he even explain why he thinks this? Orbital weapons platforms are of very limited value, particularly based on something like the shuttle, ICBMs guide themselves, the shuttle couldn't carry a laser powerful enough to damage a city (particularly as it would only have useful LOS for a few minutes), and while it could shoot down satellites even NEO space is big enough that it would be very lucky to hit more than one or two per mission.
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Old 25-March-2007, 06:53 PM
Daryl71 Daryl71 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grashtel View Post
Does he even explain why he thinks this? Orbital weapons platforms are of very limited value, particularly based on something like the shuttle, ICBMs guide themselves, the shuttle couldn't carry a laser powerful enough to damage a city (particularly as it would only have useful LOS for a few minutes), and while it could shoot down satellites even NEO space is big enough that it would be very lucky to hit more than one or two per mission.
Nope, he doesn't explain why he thinks this. To quote:

Quote:
In the larger term, as SDI matured, the shuttle could be used to repair SDI satellites and to carry out command, control, communications and (CI3), including battle coordination, guiding the delivery of nuclear warheads, electronic snooping, target selection, etc.

Later, depending on how far SDI proceeded, shuttle-mounted weapons such as laser cannons were envisioned to shoot down enemy satellites or missiles, or, when the technology became available, could conceivably attempt to incinerate enemy cities. Offensive and defensive weapons could be launched into space, and there was even talk of sending the president into orbit in wartime, allowing him a haven from which to guide military operations.
His source? Idle speculation.
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Old 25-March-2007, 07:10 PM
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President apart, how could any of those missions benefit from the short duration and low altitude of the Shuttle? They could all be done better from unmanned satellites.
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Old 25-March-2007, 08:25 PM
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Incinerating cities with a laser? That's like butchering an elephant with a scalpel.

Mind you, back in the days when the Shuttle was supposed to be the launch platform for all US civilian and defense payloads, then the space-based components of SDI would have presumably been launched by STS. The shuttle was supposed to be a truck. Ascribing C3 and combat missions to it would've been like doing a "Road Warrior" mod to a truck: Cool/horrifying to a layman's fevered imagination, but not a practical use of materials to anyone who really knows the systems.
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Old 25-March-2007, 08:55 PM
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President-in-the-Shuttle reminded me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whoops_Apocalypse

(Never saw the movie, but the TV series was fantastic (to a 12 or 13 year old)).
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Old 26-March-2007, 04:00 PM
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I want that TV series

I must say something about this CT (and no, I am not buying it either ), it's a bit more creative than the silly CT bit (usually pushed out by Moon Hoax Believers) that STS-51L was sabotaged because Christa McAuliffe refused to go along with "Big Evil NASA" claiming she could not see stars in space or something like that.
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Old 26-March-2007, 05:37 PM
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I can't believe I'm still reading this, this...thing that's been sapping my will to live for four days. Up to page 350ish right now. I swear I've been reading 150 pages of Rogers Commission transcripts interjected occasionally by the author's comments. I just want to get to the part where he blames Ronald Reagan for blowing up Challenger.
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Old 26-March-2007, 05:39 PM
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Anyone who proposes the space shuttle or any other manned orbital platform as any sort of credible space warfare asset would have his book thrown out my window.
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Old 26-March-2007, 07:16 PM
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Here's the authors website,

http://www.richardccook.com/
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Old 27-March-2007, 04:37 AM
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Default Re: New Book on Challenger

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Anyone who proposes the space shuttle or any other manned orbital platform as any sort of credible space warfare asset would have his book thrown out my window.
Based on Daryl71's descriptions, it appears that if one had removed the Rogers Commission content prior to giving it the heave-ho, it would slowly float to the ground.

BTW, I remember some letters to the editor in the New London Day shortly after the accident.

One said that the destruction was supernatural, stating that the smoke pattern left by the controlled ascent, the tank rupture, and the unleashed SRBs was obviously the same as a hand gesture which indicates the horns of the devil. Funny how those devilish Texas fans use the same secret sign.



Another stated that the shuttle was doomed since in silhouette it resembled the Taj Mahal, and as such was a symbol of a decadent society that was ripe for disaster.

Yup, the resemblance is uncanny:

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Old 27-March-2007, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Anyone who proposes the space shuttle or any other manned orbital platform as any sort of credible space warfare asset would have his book thrown out my window.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrkeller View Post
Here's the authors website,

http://www.richardccook.com/
Jay, any chance you can throw the website out the window instead? Now that WOULD be worth seeing!
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Old 27-March-2007, 08:24 PM
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Default I could of told you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksutov View Post
Funny how those devilish Texas fans use the same secret sign.
Hey, I could have told you that t.u. fans were evil.

Gig'Em Aggies!
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Old 27-March-2007, 08:38 PM
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Read Mr. Cook's testimony before the commission on Challenger here. A notable excerpt:
Quote:
I reported back to my management monthly on the assessment I was getting from across the street on what the O-ring situation was. And I know, I'm not an engineer. I can't talk in engineering detail. I think I understand the basics of the joint configuration and all of that stuff, although I certainly couldn't comment on an engineer's analysis of it.
He analyzed the O-ring problem from a budgetary standpoint only.

His expertise is in fiscal analysis. He apparently has no special qualification in space engineering and in my opinion has no business speaking on his own authority regarding what the space shuttle was designed to do or could be adapted to do. In my opinion he has no credible expertise in space warfare. I certainly do not recognize in him any authority.
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Old 27-March-2007, 10:21 PM
Daryl71 Daryl71 is offline
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Mr. Cook's book has already gotten two five-star reviews on Amazon.com. I suppose once I'm done reading it I'll have to trash the party, so to speak.
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Old 27-March-2007, 11:43 PM
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They probably didn't read it, why should you? :P

I must say, I find this to be a refreshingly original idea, even if it is hilariously stupid.
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Old 28-March-2007, 09:25 AM
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i raised this question to no avail when i was confronted with "government dark matter weapons"

why BOTHER building city incinerating lasers when we already have cheap and easy to deliver nukes? what's the point? like somehow people won't notice you just wiped out an entire city.

it must be very comforting to think the government has this kind of control, knowledge and force of will.
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Old 28-March-2007, 09:40 AM
Grashtel Grashtel is online now
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Quote:
there was even talk of sending the president into orbit in wartime, allowing him a haven from which to guide military operations.
If this ever did actually happen I am pretty much certain it was swiftly followed by everyone else in the room busting out laughing and then speculating on which potent substance the person putting forth the idea had been smoking.

Putting the president in a vulnerable and highly visable vehicle flying on a predictable path with very limited maneuverability that is almost certain to pass over enemy held territory is one if the worst possible things to do to keep him safe, sticking him in an unmarked tank that stays behind the battle lines would be a far better choice (but still a Really Not Good Idea).
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Old 28-March-2007, 04:16 PM
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The first requirement of "guiding military operations" is to have clear, reliable and timely communications with your forces. Before the TDRS satellites were launched in the late '80s, spacecraft in low Earth orbit (such as the Shuttle) were out of the communications range of ground stations for significant fractions of their orbits.
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Old 28-March-2007, 04:47 PM
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I must say, I find this to be a refreshingly original idea...

Not really. The Air Force talked about a manned orbital platform in the 1960s.
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Old 28-March-2007, 05:01 PM
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