You know, I'm reading through the Enterprise Mission website and I came across this page:

http://www.enterprisemission.com/right.html

Do you think they honestly believe this stuff or are they just doing this to make money?

Does it really matter? One way or another, they are worth ignoring. Unfortunately, its the ones who follow thier path that you need to educate.

__________________
Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

I guess you have a point, it really shouldn't matter. However it bothers me to see people being duped so some guy can make a living off of it. It reminds me of those faith healing preachers that rip people off.

There is the "money motive", however I think that Hoagy has deceived himself for so long that he believes his own "press".

When you start off (years ago with the "face") by thinking artificiality, then it becomes no great "leap" to see artificiality everywhere.

It's like a runaway train that only gains momentum as it rolls down a steep hill.

[clicks link with trepidation]

Yeah, I knew that was a bad idea. If he sees regularity there, he'd see it in anything.

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

[overly calm voice]
Please step away from the link, and you won't get hurt...

CJSF

__________________
Two years ago moved from my town
I was looking up past the city lights
But the city lights got in my way

See the constellation ride across the sky
No cigar, no lady on his arm
Just a guy made of dots and lines

-from "See The Constellation"
by They Might Be Giants

I think in Hoagland's case it's a little more complicated than just wanting to make money. To be sure, it's also about being in the limelight. But in Hoagland's case I get the impression he's angry at NASA for not recognizing his exceptional ability in space science. (Tongue firmly in cheek on that one.) And so what he does not only brings him a measure of fame and fortune, but also "gets back" at NASA by suggesting they are behaving inappropriately.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

I've thought the same thing. When you read his writing, it feels like it's being written by someone who has been wronged.

__________________
There we were in the park when suddenly some old lady says I stole her purse..... I chucked the professor at her but she kept coming..... So I had to hit her with this purse I found.
-- Bender

I believe those features to be natural , but it still is kinda cool to pretend , I love that Sci-fi Mars civilization stuff , I love it for what it is . . . . Science Fiction , Hoaglands Mars is a fascinating place if you squint or use your imagination , I disagree with the practice of passing it off as fact , but it does keep Mars lore interesting.

Pardon me while I disagree with you a "tiny" bit.

Pretending is fine as long as it is understood by all that Hoaglands "stuff" is fantasy, however that is not the case...there are those who take what he says seriously.

As long as Hoagland presents this "stuff" as if it were real, those of us who know better are duty bound to debunk it.

When you read his writing, it feels like it's being written by someone who has been wronged.

IIRC Hoagland accuses NASA of stealing ideas from a paper he wrote without giving him credit for it. When that was investigated it turns out the ideas weren't Hoagland's either.

As does everyone, Hoagland wants to be great. He wanted greatness defined as having been appreciated by NASA for his insight, but when that failed he redefined greatness as having exposed NASA's alleged coverups. It's really not that hard to understand. But it's important for Hoagland's prospective readers and viewers to see that bigger picture in order to see where he's coming from and whether his claims have more to do with sour grapes than with actual science.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

I can't really understand how anybody would take the Mars civilization/Cydonia seriously and I do firmly believe that all of it needs to be debunked and the REAL Mars exposed , but I just like the creativity involved in cooking up such an elaborate story , just like I get a kick out of the whole 'Serpo' thing , I am very 'aware' that it's fake , but I have a hard time reading pure fiction and Hoaglands Mars is about as close as I get to fiction so I take it for what it is and try to enjoy the story.

I do also like the proverbial game of 'pong' going on between the Woo-woos and the scientists , I get a kick out of it for sure!

I don't get a kick out of the Apollo Hoax theory , that is just bad form!

It's more like a game of tetris.

The woo-woos dump bizzare blocks of information on us, which we organize, put in their place and ultimately destroy.

Only to have those same blocks of nonsense dropped on us again and again and again!

__________________
...the poor square has to say, "Well, I was in some other mystic dimension, called UP!" -C.S.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -C.S.

Remember, you just have facts, you have mere facts. -worzel (said with sarcazm)

"Pain is just weakness leaving the body." -unknown

The same blocks! Always the same blocks! Is it too much to ask for to get a little originality?

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

The crux of the Hoaxland issue is this.

He's pinned his entire life, his career, his livelyhood on artificiallity on Mars.

When MGS-MOC at 1.5m/pixel and now MRO-HiRISE at 0.25m/pixel showed the FOM to be quite obviously a little hill - Hoaxland had a problem.

He HAD to make out that they were artifical. Even if he looked at it and said "hmm - looks natural" - he couldn't - under any circumstances - admit that he thinks it's natural in public - he HAS to maintain it's artificiallity under any and all data.

We could have CRISM giving us beautiful 500 point spectra at 20m/pixel - Sharad and Mardi giving us great radio soundings - GRS data - PFS - data from both NASA & ESA etc etc etc all saying "this is a natural hill made of natural materials" and Hoagland would be forced to try and find elements of artificiality in it - even if there are none whatsoever - because his bank account depends on it.

He's a fraudster. He knows he's a fraudster. Tragically - enough people 'buy' his lies to make his fraud profitable. Even if within himself he admits that his work is lies - he can never ever admit it in public and because of that - he will remain a fraudster.

Doug