Since this episode is now over, we need a name for it. May I suggest the Interdimensional War?

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"Time travel gives me a headache." - Capt. Kathryn Janeway

Well, that was just - weird. I feel like I've been in a real-life Monty Python skit.

IDW,

Well I was watching your debate thread that got locked, and there are a few things I would like to go on record about.

You asked for a point by point debate. Yet when multitudes of people provided proof, schematics, specifications, and examples of the cooling systems. . . You ignored them.

And you accuse this forum as not being a science ? Yet you were the one ignoring the science. Thats really bad form man. You were asked many time to site source, math, etc... and never once did.

If you want to see some real science, might I suggest the ongoing Mt. St. Helen's (Mt. Slab) thread. You'll note that there is no arguing of points on it. If i made a mistake, I come out and say it! (see my Newberry Caldera Strikes Back thread for a good example of that)

You were asked a few of the same questions multiple times, and patently ignored them. Thats not science and thats not debating. Instead you went on about your main argument, or shifted it to something else. There is a word for that. Filibustering.
That is definitely not how to debate science.

You had an opportunity to actually learn something about the cooling systems. I know I did. However in your mind there is no such thing as a credible source, unless it's in support of your own thinking. You said we were closed minded but who was the one ignoring the facts, accusing people of being disinformation agents for the government, etc etc etc.

It was you. The only closed mind was yours, which is why that thread became an argument, and not a debate.

If you want to discuss scientific topics, you have to come with an approach that, No you don't know everything, and pay attention to facts as they are presented. No matter how much you don't like those facts.

A person that thinks they know everything about any topic, can never learn again. Which is what seems to have happened to you.

Yes this is a critique of you, because you critiqued us.

In summary I found your original approach refreshing, but a lie.

(To Moderators: I know this post is treading on thin ice, but I think an honest critique of him is in order. If you must pull this and bap me for it, I quite understand)

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"There is no problem that cannot be solved by a suitable application of high explosives" - US Army Demolitions School

http://worldsofothersuns.home.comcast.net/

I hope there isn't (a 12-step program). We have nothing we need to be cured of.

I know it is hard, but I think we as a community need to continue our behavior - follow the rules, be as polite as we can, stick to the facts, address the points of the HBers. I think we should applaud ourselves for our exemplary behavior. I think we are doing a great service to science, history, and the world at large.

No, we probably won't change people like IDW. Yes, we have seen it all before, time and time again, so that we can very accurately predict the outcome. But I feel that each time we must go into the fight with the hope that maybe this person will be different. If we don't, we are lowering ourselves to their level.

@ the mods - Since this discussion now seems to not be about a particular conspiracy, maybe it should be moved to About BAUT.

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At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

Although I agree with the arguments presented here as to why a one-on-one debate was refused, I see that an advantage of such an approach would have been that much energy would have been saved because the debate would never have gotten past his initial assertion. He would have had to back that up before any further debate would have been possible, and he never did so. Having a long discussion on the thermal properties of the Apollo capsule presented by multiple board members, despite being educational, allowed him to claim that he was being overwhelmed and unable to present his argument. I would really liked to have seen no one respond to anything until he could support his very first statement.

After reading that entire thread the only things I could make out of his argument were the following:

- he believed that the capsule would have gotten too hot for humans to survive inside
- he based this belief on his experience with a DeLorean automobile on a hot day
- he stated that he did not have enough information to do a proper calculation to support his belief, yet believed it anyway

I don't see the downside. I mean, no matter what the response, a poster could come up with some sort of excuse.There ya go

PS: as an example, what if we did do it one-on-one? With a similar outcome, couldn't he claim that he was being "ganged up on" behind the scenes? That our rep was being fed lines by a cadre of information tools--in other words, no different than now, but we would look worse for being "sekret"

I don't see wasted energy from our side. I learned from what others told me about the cooling system (I didn't know acitve circulation was involved, but it certainly explains quite a few things ), I'm sure others learend as well. The Op may have not, but that's not our energy which is wasted.

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

I was thinking of posting a diagram showing how light/IR radiation from multiple sources is hitting the car - and that these sources are missing for a spacecraft. I suspect that would have been harder to hand-wave away.

Oh well. As other people commented, I did learn things - like the equation for the equilibrium temperature for an ideal body in space. (BTW, any chance of getting the LaTex module installed so proper equations can be posted? Or would too few people use it to make it worthwhile?)

Perhaps, but there could be a situation where there would be no response at all, instead of dozens of posts from various BAUT members, until he actually put forth his argument. There could be no "ganging up" if there were no postings.

So, what does IDW do now? Go back to whatever nutjob hole he came from and brag to all his buddies that he ran into the dragons den and mooned them?

I still find it both amazing and sad just how many people there are that think that debate consists of making an assertion then insulting any disagreers louder and louder until the give up. If he had just followed through with any of his claims, he may of actually learned something.

Then again, since it was fairly obvious that he was here to play the martyr, not to debate, I guess that the result was not really suprising.

Sure; why not... well, at least until his buddies ask why he doesn't sit down anymore.

Anyway; All of Jay's responses were addressing IDW. If IDW had not responded to anyone but Jay, then it would have been a one-on-one no matter how noisy the surrounding crowd was.
And; If everyone else had noticed that IDW was not responding to anyone other than Jay, I would be willing to bet that the noise would have dropped considerably.

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

Just a reminder to the "wasted energy" line of thought - we are all volunteers here, from the moderators to the members. Nobody 'forces' us to point our browsers in the direction of the CT forum and engage in science. So, if we do, we obviously want to. And if we're doing something we want to do, on our free time, sans pay, I'd hardly call that 'wasted'. Just my personal opinion.

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

What if someone's addicted to the BAUT Forums and its Conspiracy Theories section?

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Spread the Love!

I had hopes, but that hard turn he took last night floored me. A fairly civil back and forth, not particularly productive, then a violent veer int "ban me" ...then into "hoax-speak" with the gubmint stooge/paid liar stuff...whatever fence he was sitting on is sawdust now.
Wow...never seen an implosion like that before. Unfortunate.

Most. Not all.

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[Dr. Horrible]___________________________[Penny]
Listen close to everybody's heart________And you believe there's good in everybody's heart
And hear that breaking sound_____________Keep it safe and sound
Hopes and dreams are shattering apart____With hope you can do your part
And crashing to the ground_______________To turn a life around

I have a slightly divergent perception of the thread. I don't think the posters "ganged up." Most of them stayed on-topic, illuminating in slightly different ways what was a singular core response; a description of the real science (and links on where to learn more). The majority of the posters also avoided direct questions.

This means the only onus on IDW was to read at least a little of what was presented. Well, I read the entire thread. I don't see it as an onerous chore to do so! He didn't have to reply or respond to individuals; he only had to respond to the consensus description.

If that is "ganging up," then so is a science teacher lecturing while you have your textbook open on the same subject. You still only have to write on the blackboard once.

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

IDW was here for one reason only. To get banned so he can tell all his chums that Baut could not silence him and his truth any other way. He came gunning and got what he wanted. He did not want answers, though he got a lot of good replies, I learned a whole lot, of course I'll forget it by bedtime. You people did your best, it's him who failed.

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"If they put me on a postage stamp tell them to use the young Bender"
--Bender

I was only referring to Obviousman and myself with regard to our optimism toward IDW's promises. I wasn't referring to the whole board.




.

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Apollo unbelievers go here for immediate salvation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khDI2MsWSYc

"I had a hand in Tom Morrow's kiester."
-JayUtah

"The only physical proof nasa has that they landed men on the moon is 840 lbs. of rocks"
-straydog02

I didn't think you were implying anything else, but the thought raised larger issues for me.

There has been a lot of discussion, from many posters, as to whether we "ganging-up" on HBers, whether we should have treated IDW differently, should there been a 1 on 1 debate, etc. All I was saying is I think our process and are culture here are really pretty good, and I don't see a pressing need to change those.

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At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)