I'm really not trying to continue the "1st Question" arguments, but there is one point I really feel ought to be addressed, because it leads to some material I feel would be of interest to the board members - and even IDW, who may yet be lurking after insisting, literally, on being banned.

JayUtah: Have you ever read a book on the thermal design of spacecraft? Yes or no.
IDW: No, I haven't , and they're not easy to come by! Perhaps you can suggest a few titles.
and
IDW: As far as I know there simply arent any books published on the subject of spacecraft thermodynamics.

It took me about ten seconds of typing "thermal design of spacecraft" into the search bar for Amazon.com and waiting for about two dozen listings to be displayed, some for as little as US$28. Not all of them were available, but there are plenty more to be found with a little digging. Or one could go to a technical bookstore or a library. Or if one were to Google "thermal design of spacecraft" he would find many, many more reports and books which are available to purchase.

On the general topic of heat transfer, there is an excellent free textbook available in PDF:
A Heat Transfer Textbook, by John H. Lienhard IV and his son JHL V. The former gentleman is a professor at the University of Houston, who I have had the pleasure of meeting; his son is a prof at MIT. It's a very good introduction into all aspects of heat transfer.

Space Mission Analysis and Design, 3rd edition (affectionately known in the space business as "SMAD") contains a very good, succinct chapter on thermal design and control for spacecraft.

Here is a sampling of other references pertaining to spacecraft thermal design and control, from a few seconds of Googling:

Spacecraft Thermal Control

SPACECRAFT THERMAL CONTROL COATINGS DESIGN AND APPLICATION

Solar Absorptance and Thermal Emittance of Some Common Spacecraft Thermal Control Coatings, NASA-RP-1121

Thermophysical Data and Environments

Thermal Design Part of a Master's thesis for a small spacecraft design study.

Thermal design and test verification of GALAXY evolution explorer (GALEX)

Spacecraft thermal design for the IUE Includes, for example, discussion of thermal control technologies such as coatings, multi-layer insulation, louvers, and the simple expedient of deploying something before it cooled too much.

Perhaps this post isn't really on-topic for this subforum, but I thought it appropriate given the recent interest in the topic.

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"Slapping a guy on the head is just as funny now as it was eighty years ago."

Forgot to add: Or one can go to the NASA Technical Reports Server and search for "thermal design" in the titles. Plenty of examples of thermal design for actual missions.

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"Slapping a guy on the head is just as funny now as it was eighty years ago."

That's essentially the bibliography I had intended to post should IDW have asserted that no such references existed. The way he phrased his response made his exact claim ambiguous. IIRC, he did actually say something to the effect of the books being "hard to come by," which is patently not true. If one wants to learn the state of the art in spacecraft thermal design, study materials are as easy to acquire these days as a recipe for Waldorf salad.

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"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Waldorf salad, the favorite dish of the Annual Illuminati Picknick(tm)!
I'm always ammused by the "The information simply doesn't exist!" claims we see so often, particularly when the information is even available by simple googling... although I don't know which I find more annoying; being too lazy to even do a simple web search, or the assumption that if something's not freely available on the 'net then the information must not exist.

__________________

I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

As an aside, a quick google search brought me to the Nasa Tech. Repts. Server that you both talked about, and another quick search brought up...well, lots of hits. But near the top of the list was this report about "A thermal scale modeling study for Apollo and Apollo applications" (vol. 2). Now my connection at work is dismal, and after about 25 minutes the pdf is still loading so I haven't gotten a chance to look at it yet, but I have a feeling based on the title that a good many of IDW's questions are answered therein. Of course, this report comes from "The Man", so of course it is "rigged" with "misinformation". Oh well, mr head meet mr wall.

Edit: Oops forgot to include link. Fixed.

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

This is all good, but since we are all NASA gub'mint disinfo agents, it must all be patently false info or simply disinfo planted by the perfect conspiracy.

I'm living proof that any idiot can find good data on the space thermal environment. Van Rijn's link was a jewel, I don't know if IDW ever got it downloaded. SMAD and a number of websites all show that a lot of the same materials/values get repeated...a lot. If folks really want to learn, it doesn't take a lot of searching to find valuable, and consistant, information. And it's understandable by laymen. Having experts here to help with some of the tough stuff also goes far, to those willing to admit they don't know everything.

I'm glad you liked it. FYI, I found that with a few minutes of Googling, when responding to a request IDW had for some information on the radiators. I certainly learned a thing or two from it. One positive thing I can say for that discussion: Unlike many of the "Where are the stars?" or "How do you answer these often repeated thirty questions?" threads, I did get something out of that thread, and it's obvious quite a few others did too.

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

I did get something out of that thread, and it's obvious quite a few others did too. I agree. I'm itching to check out that site when I get home, I had to give up after 45 minutes of pdf loading and counting (I think our network is actually powered by carrier pterodactyls a-la Flinstones).

__________________

I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

Heh. I've been spoiled by broadband connections. One thing I did want to mention about that paper - the discussion on the ECS radiators is several pages in. It covers a number of ECS subjects, all interesting, but don't be surprised that you have to work your way down to the discussion of the coldplates, radiators, and so on.

__________________
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Heh. I've been spoiled by broadband connections. That's the frustraiting thing--this is a T1 connection, yet all internet traffic gets first routed through the company servers first, which are woefully inadequate for a leading national insurance company. This should be the fastest connection I've ever had access too; instead, it's roughly comprable to the 14.4kbps I use to get via modem when I lived out in the middle of nowhere.

Have broadband at home though, so this is just a temporary (8 minutes to clock-out!) setback.

Sorry, off-topic rant.

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

I thought thermal control was achieved because the csm was put into a slow roll during the trans lunar coast.

That's one method. The infamous "bar-b-que roll".

However, it's not the sole method. For instance, when Apollo was still attached to the S-IVB, or about to dock with the LM, it needed alternative methods. The LM itself needed an alternative method when it sat on the lunar surface.

Even today, these things must be considered.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

IDW also came up with the best "information is not available" argument I have ever seen.

BAUT: Here is a PDF file with the information you want
IDW: I would love to download it, but it won't let me.
Member1: I can
Member2: Me too
Member3: So can I

And so on, and so on.

Getting back on topic ... this stuff about thermal control of spaceships is very enlightening. Even if IDW didn't appreciate, I do. Thank guys, as always.

__________________
Dave

Anyone seen my marbles? Anyone ... ?

Griffins text might have something on the subject.

I just noticed this picture linked in a post by Count Zero over on ApolloHoax.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/Hi...-145-22275.jpg

It's a very nice indication of how reflective the Apollo craft were.

...a picture I wanted when IDW claimed "his" De Lorean parked in the Sun (on Earth) was a good facsimile of a spacecraft in the Sun. A better choice might be a mirror. (?)

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Stainless steel has an absorptivity of about 0.4. Aluminumized mylar has an absorptivity of about 0.1. Just because a DeLorean looks vaguely shiny like a command module doesn't mean the computations work out the same.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

The slow roll of the spacecraft was done in part for a subtle reason.

The heat shield of the command module was not in fact completely covered by the service module when the two were joined. Rolling protected it from persistent gradients across its surface.

Wayne