Neverfly,

This is sol 89 and I will give you a ling with the temperatures. Pressure data is unavailable The Rovers have no pressure sensors that I know. The link I provided has sati lire data. This is the equatorial region of Mars.

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/20070612.html

dfrank

Neverfly,

Ok, take my hand. Do you understand the triple point of water is 6.1 mb.

I'm utterly clueless...
Can you explain it?

...and he isn't going to. He has decided that his "personal opinion" is the evidence ie. "it looks like water to me", which isn't going to convince ANYONE.

As long as Dfrank can not differentiate between opinion and evidence, any discussion with him will be a waste of time.

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

Ok brother,

6.1 mb is a pressure. On Earth it is 1012mb at sea level. What makes 6.1 millibars significant is it is the triple point. That is the pressure that water can exist as a liquid, solid and gas That’s why they call it triple point.

dfrank

RAF

I gave an analysis. Why don’t you break it down and tell me where I am wrong. Or you just want to act like you know what you are doing?

dfrank

Would this be hortonheardawho, from the Mars Forum, http://www.marsroverblog.com/mars-forum/forum.html, who doesn't agree with your analysis, has banned you from the site, and won't touch your ideas with a ten-foot pole? I don't think trained is the right word to use...

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

You still misunderstand, Dfrank, and I grow weary of explaining it to you. You have presented NO science, to date. Only the circular reasoning of "My picture shows water? My evidence? The water in the picture...." The picture clearly shows dirt. It is YOUR responsibility to demonstrate why it shows otherwise. To date, you have speculated, and claimed. You have not demonstrated.

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

Watch the ad-homs, Dfrank. The only person who has demonstrated a lack of understanding of the fundamentals so far is you, sir. Don't sling them again.

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

Serinitude,

That would be the man that taut me everything I know about imagining. You are correct he would not touch me with a ten foot pole. I am all yours brother if you want to do science. He is the best.

dfrank

When you say "it looks like water to me". Do you understand why your opinion is irrelevant, unless you have evidence to "back it up"??

I understand your frustration in that people here are not agreeing with your ideas, but resorting to making "snide" remarks will not help your argument.

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

First, I'm not your brother. Second, if you hold him in such high esteem, it may behoove you to take heed of his opinion of these images. Third, the moment you present some science, we're more than ready.

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

Guys ,

Did you not get the narrative? I thought I made it idiot proof. I can’t walk you all the way. You guys have not read the PDF I gave from Levins. You can ban me forever and it will not change Mars. Yea I do hold that man in high regard even though he banned me forever from that site. That’s because he knew what he was doing. You don’t see that much. There are a lot of good guys on that site.

dfrank

You are dangerously close to banning. I suggest you take a deep breath, walk around a bit, and then return. You can't make something "idiot" proof without presenting it first. IE; we need some evidence - you can make it complex or "idiot-proof", we can handle both You've only SUGGESTED and SPECULATED so far - if you don't know the difference, I don't know what to tell you.

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

The not so subtle implication that we are somehow "idiots" if we don't agree with you has not gone unnoticed. Why do you strive to get yourself banned??

..and you can "see" water on mars all ya want, but that won't make Mars any "wetter".

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

Serinitude.

It may be a communication problem. I will take the rest of the night off if that is ok.

Dfrank

Seems you're doing pretty well on your own now with imagining. Although the teaching apparently made you uptight. At least that's what I was taught taut means.

Some science would be nice, though. Especially something beyond taking a brief touching of the water triple point by local Martian conditions, which then reverted back to their normal conditions which prohibit liquid water on the surface, and applying that short moment as a justification for seeing large pools of standing water on the Martian surface in a false-color image.

BTW, trof is NOAA, etc. shorthand for trough. When you're sending quick text messages, whether by computer, radio, or telegraph, shorthand and slang can save you time, especially when you're in a storm.

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A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

I think that is a good idea. Let's continue this tomorrow

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

From the BA himself, even the mainstreamers hopeful of "Martian Water" disappointed:

http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2...-liquid-water/

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

Apparently so, since many people have explained the problem with your presentation of personal opinion only, and you still seem to be unclear on the concept. But just in case there's a chance for something more, I'll repeat my earlier post:

You have provided no supporting evidence for your personal opinion, despite repeated requests.

You have not shown why your personal opinion is the only explanation for the features in the image (this would require supporting evidence).

You have not shown why your personal opinion is better than the standard explanation for the features in the image (this would require supporting evidence).

What is your supporting evidence for your personal opinion? To be clear, this would be something other than, "look at the picture."

Got it? Do you have something other than "look at the picture" or not?

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Also, don't forget, there's a little matter of supporting your conspiracy allegations, which is co-numero-uno priority in questions. We expect to see much evidence on that, and VERY soon.

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

Now most people who have read my posts know that the amount I know about most space related topics can fit on the back of a postage stamp in very large handwriting and still leave room for name and address, but one thing particularly strikes me Dfrank, even if we take the hypothetical case that you can indeed see fluid there (I make no judgements about this without knowing details of the image, what channels it's showing etc. although you can most definitely colour me sceptical) but how have you shown it is water as opposed to something else, could it not be say a petroleum compound or liquid ammonia, LN2 or any other liquid?

Could I also ask that you source the image? (you may have done so already in the thread in which case I apologise), because it is hard to have a meaningful conversation about what could be shown in an image without knowing how it was taken, what filters were applied and so forth. For example this image would have totally different implications if it was taken to show temperature than if it was taken to show say silicon deposits (no idea if that's possible but I just wish to make the point).

Dfrank, when you return, there's something that you should know that puts a hole in your idea about that image.

Now, some hope does exist.

However, as the Mars rovers aren't in that area, then your opinion on this image does not stand up to scientific fact.

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This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

dfrank,
As I see it, it still comes down to you saying "this looks like evidence for water" and the rest of us saying "not to us". You ask us to prove you wrong. First, that is not our responsibility - it is up to you to prove yourself right, and second, it is not possible for us to prove you wrong. If you have not presented enough evidence to prove your case to us, you need to get more evidence.

So there is not enough data to prove the case of current water on Mars. Maybe this just has to be left as "we don't know, it will require future data". And in the real world, that is science - heck, I've given that answer frequently to my bosses.

As far as my opinion about the question of water on Mars... I think there is massive evidence that liquid water existed at one time on the surface. The evidence is not just photos of things that look like water created them, but things like mineral analysis that shows phases that could have only formed in an aqueous environment.

The evidence that liquid water currently exists on Mars is much weaker - even NASA and other astronomers seem to be debating the point. It is borderline at best that the pressure/temperature conditions would allow it. And there is a big difference between transient water and more permanent. It seems to me that even NASA is waiting on more data.

That leaves me two final questions to you. First, even assuming (big assumption) that the photo you presented shows evidence for formations created by water, how do you know that this happened recently or a hundred or a billion years ago?

Second, where is the conspiracy? Do you think NASA secretly agrees with your analysis and is covering that up? To me, it is more a question of just waiting on more data before reaching a conclusion.

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At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

From the BA's blog...
New Mars results: no liquid water?

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

The second request was to draw a link between my anomalies and religion.

Looking back over the thread we came to religion in an attempt to answer why NASA would not investigate these anomalies. It came about after a discussion of the influence that church has had on the development of science during the time of Galileo. A leap was made by me that maybe it is still influencing it today. I was wrong.

After a lot of research I have found no such link. Not even something to wave a hand about. Every time I thought I was close the author also had a book about alien mind control.

The name of this thread contains my position as NASA being a conspiracy generator because they did not investigate the anomaly in post 1. When they failed to take a closer look they gave fuel to speculation. No matter what happens to this thread I will always wonder why. Why didn’t they just drive over there and poke around? They had traveled millions of miles, what’s another 10 feet.

dfrank

Fact is that NASA (and the posters here) simply do not see any "anomaly". You need to present evidence that there actually is an anomaly or this thread will go nowhere.

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

So, you are indicating that you chose to make an accusation against an organization when you had not in fact done enough research to make such an accusation.

Wayne

RAF,

Looking back at some of you post I see that you keep making reference to me saying it looks like water. I think I should change that to behaves like water.

If the micro dunes where dust and the ground was dry then the micro-dunes should not stop at the valley edge. At the points of degeneration they should not change the surface albedo.

dfrank

No difference makes no difference. It's the same "problem". NASA and posters here do not think that it "behaves like water". You need to demonstrate (with evidence) that your idea has merit.

Anything else is just an opinion, and you have yet to show why your opinion should be valued over any other opinion.

Unfortunately I have to leave, and I'll be gone for most of the day.

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov