There's even less indication of water in that image! As if any existed in the first place......

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This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

Approximate is better than nothing.
Just how different do you think the human eye would see it?

I've looked over the material. Carefully.
Nothing looks like water. I only see dirt and sand.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

Cornell University Estimating the True Colors of Mars

So, looking over the rover's shoulder, on our good monitors, we see such as:


More at Pancam True Color Images: Sols 51-100

Edit: Compare the "estimates" of the clumsy image manipulator Dfrank likes to cite:
Corresponding sol 74 image Corresponding sol 71 image

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That’s why we default to grayscale. That is why I posted the grayscale L5 image. To take out the color and get back on the behavior and distribution of the materials that makes up the micro-dunes. The pond is still there in all images.

dfrank

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...GP2417L5M1.JPG

Serenitude,

The calibrated images are nothing but art work. That is why we have gone to gray scale. There is nothing in the grayscale image to overturn my analysis.

dfrank

I see sand. Nothing more. Think about this though. If there were water there, wouldn't NASA want to prove it? Wouldn't the existence of readily available water increase their funding and increase the chances of getting a manned mission to mars in the near future? I think you're seeing what you want to see.

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"Eternal vigilance is the price of supremacy"
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"Women are like Voltron. The more you can hook up, the better it gets."

Swift,

The reason we know that the material in question is not billions of years old is because we know that the wind blows on Mars. We can see changes in dune patterns on a daily bases.

dfrank

The original image and discussion are on post 285 and 286

dfrank

Low pressure water eruption sol 1177, edge of Victoria crater.

First image, L5 grayscale
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle..._P2553L5M1.JPG
Second image, enhanced stereo 3D From hortonheardawho.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1436/...f4f895dd_o.png
dfrank

What "analysis"??

"It's water" is not an analysis, it is a conclusion you have reached. When are you going to present evidence to validate that conclusion?

Constantly asking for evidence and getting none, is getting real old.

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

Should we continue or let this die. Going over the same ground is getting old indeed. I gave an analysis, I was sort of hoping for, in ref to area II or area IX. All I am getting is, all I see is sand and pressure and temp challenges that have been addressed.

Hopefully at least the color issue is gone.

dfrank

I'm going to go WAY out on a limb here...
And probably regret it.

Notice the appearance of "transluscency" where you can see the pebbles beneath a blurred surface far left.

Notice the darkened are where the rock "looks wet."
Notice the translucency effect lower left.
It is very easy to see how a person would look at this and say "WATER!"
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle..._P2553L5M1.JPG

Second image, enhanced stereo 3D From hortonheardawho.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1436/...f4f895dd_o.png

However, pulling myself back in from the limb- Focus (zoom in if you need to) on the UPPER LEFT. You can see the "rippling effect in what is clearly sand merging in a slight downward pointed arc. If it was water- that would'nt be like that at all.
This is probably the clearest part of the picture that indicates this is sand without the illusion of water.

If this thread were a horse, it would be euthanized.

It's lame.

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Neverfly,

Great question. The upper left is a rapid transition zone into the crater. This arch also correlates with a change in sheen. This sheen change in a negative tilt means wet to me. The short answer is this is a micro-topographic effect.

This link should give you a better understanding as you can see the image in context

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=...8997185&size=l

dfrank

That wasn't a question.
I was pointing out the inconsistancy as sand cannot magically turn into water.

Neverfly,

At that point it is wet sand, not standing water.

dfrank

[mirror Crow T. Robot]
Die die die die die die dieeee!
[/mirror Crow T Robot]


Yes it is.

No, you skipped the analysis part and went straight to "Conclusion".
In a nutshell, you only gave "It looks like water" or "I see water".


We must have different life experiences.
I've never seen standing water look anything like what you claim to see in the images.

__________________
This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

Atmospheric dust should behave the same.

Utter total hogwash. My expertise includes fluid-entrained particle behavior, and there is absolute no way you're going to handwave out of this as you have elsewhere.

I see no reason for the dust to behave any different from one event to another.

How about from place to place? How about from terrain to terrain? The deposition of entrained particles in small-scale solid obstacles in fluid flow is highly chaotic in terms of variance in the fluid variables. You have absolutely no basis for concluding that since dust was deposited at some time and place in a certain manner, it can't therefore be depoisted at some other time and place in a different manner.

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"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Agreed, that this is an honorable action.

But now are we left with a conspiracy-free claim in the Conspiracy Theories subforum? It seems like all that is left is a hard-core Against the Mainstream handwaving claim that rover Opportunity imaged water in these images.

Dfrank: do you claim any further conspiracy by the institution of NASA and NASA employees and scientists cooperating with NASA, and other space agencies and their allied scientists, indeed, astrogeologists, planetary geologists everywhere, to cover up what you maintain is certain evidence of currently flowing water on Mars imaged by rover Opportunity?

Moderator: As for the rest of the content of this thread: should it get a 30-day ATM limit as seems appropriate to extreme and unsupported scientific claims like these. Or, should it be allowed to meander without end, like microfine dust on a flat dry dessert?

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Binary,

While you are claiming hand waving JayUtah has brought up some good points that I am looking over and may help reconcile this issue. It is about the behavior of dust vs. my hand waving water theory.

If he has the patients he may be able to teach me something. I am going to put on a pot of coffee.

dfrank

JayUtah,

A dust expert is exactly what I need.

How about from place to place? How about from terrain to terrain?

I agree, the dust on the surface of the Spirit Rover, Gusev Crater, location behaves different than at the Opportunity site, Meridiani. That being said if the atmospheric dust is the same then its interaction with the terrain at each location should be the same from event to event.

dfrank

A dust expert is exactly what I need.

Clearly. Your supposition that some mythical uniformity of entrained-particle behavior precludes the material in your photo from being deposited dust or sand is pure fantasy.

That being said if the atmospheric dust is the same then its interaction with the terrain at each location should be the same from event to event.

Utter nonsense.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Help me out here. If the atmospheric dust is the same, If the atmosphere is the same, If the terrain is the same, then why would it behave differently at the same site?

There is a wide gap between "opinion" and "approximate real color." As has been discussed in this thread and a prior one, as has been pointed out in links, no device will provide exactly the colors a human eye will. The camera you use to take photographs on vacation provides "approximate real color." As I'm sure you've seen, photographs can be a bit off, but generally, they're pretty close to what you would see.

The rover is designed to do more than just take approximate real color images, so some care is required to produce such. However, it is possible, and the results are far from simply "opinion."


What was the thermal profile for the day (sol) that image was taken? How long would have water remained liquid on that day?

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Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

If the atmosphere is the same...

It isn't. Fluid flow in and around terrain is largely chaotic, especially at the scale where the fluid is a planetary atmosphere and the terrain features in question are only tens of meters in size. Comparing examples of entrained-particle deposition in that regime is as useless an exercise as can be undertaken. Your attempt to falsify the dust hypothesis by reference to another example is clearly outside the realm of fluid dynamics. It's not too strong to say that your premise on this point is pure delusion.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Van,

As far as color goes I think that is a dead issue. We have defaulted to L5 grayscale.

The temps on sol 81 were high of +10c and a low of -78c. On earth water can remain liquid to -20c.

The short answer is not long.

JayUtah,

No help so far. Let’s try this. Let’s look at the image in question. We have micro-dunes made of whatever, dust, sand, snow as in my delusion. We see them a going along in the same fashion until they get to the valley then poof, they disappear. The albedo of the surface changes as well. They pick up again on the other side of the valley.
My question is this,

How does wind driven dust and sand do that?

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...GP2417L5M1.JPG

dfrank

How does wind driven dust and sand do that?

Very easily.

Do you know any trick besides begging the question?

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

JayUtah,

Dang, I thought I saw some science on those tablets you were carrying down that hill, thought I seen the white beard and everything
.
It can’t be because it can’t be, heard that before. Another false profit.

dfrank

Definitions of default on the Web:

• loss due to not showing up; "he lost the game by default"
• act of failing to meet a financial obligation
• nonpayment: loss resulting from failure of a debt to be paid
• fail to pay up
• default option: an option that is selected automatically unless an alternative is specified

The first few senses amuse me, since Dfrank's evidence has failed to show up and he isn't delivering as promised.

Dfrank, I'm guessing you probably mean the last sense, though, but if so, and in the tentative future, option this: you're better off not specifying a preemptive alternative, especially a HorridColor^TM one, and then claiming something more rational is a default.

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