I would like to point out here that, many people globally utilise the resources that NASA freely provide. I have always found that NASA's resouerces to be honest, and can readily in some cases supported by other observations.

I just showed that picture to my students - and I agree with them - it appears to be dunes and other aeolian features - can't see any water.

By the way, I am a qualified climatologist and agree with Van Rijn's statement earlier in the thread:

further stated by many other members here. (and no, I am not saying that due to consensus)

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Damien,
International Baccalaureate Physics teacher
Optics, Photogrammetry and Remote Sensing Instrumentation Major
Admin: Pacific Science and Art

Dfrank, I really don't understand you. You have stated that your ideas about water in images are speculation, yet you also condemn NASA for not basing their decisions on your personal speculation.

If NASA actually did think there was running water, why would they, in your opinion, not want to investigate it?

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Damienpaul,

Glad to have a fellow on the thread. I am sorry you misunderstood my explanation in regard to water temperature regulating water stability. I did not say that for any other reason than it is a true scientifically provable reality.

With no water temperature data the real window for water to be stable would be a guess with no bases in reality.

Dfrank

Van,

I stated they were speculation because that is all they can be. No close up study was done.

I condemn NASA for not doing a close-up study of the area

Why would they not investigate? In my opinion they either knew what it was based on previous studies from inside Endurance crater or another location, they are so smart that they think they can tell from just the visible data like me or they are stupid. I don’t think they are stupid.

See why I abandoned this one?

Get a job working there and see the inside of it.
You will probably be disappointed in how mundane the truth really is.
But at least you will know the truth.

Water temperature won't long be different from that of the environment surrounding it, so it is hardly a guess to point to the severe limits on liquid water in that environment.

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Do you work there? I would hope it would not be mundane. If looking around on another world would not get you jazzed up I do not know what would. If what you say is true and it is a mundane place you are right I would be disappointed. I would think it would be every scientist dream to explore another world.

Dfrank

Van,

Without the water temperature data and not knowing how much heat is needed to reach instability or the heat transfer ability of the air and ground we just don’t know.

Dfrank

Are you saying that physics works differently on Mars?

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Okokok I concede i worded that badly
It would be VERY EXCITING

But in the way just as you said: Exploring other worlds.

Not in the sense that you are finding photographic evidence of martians!

Van,

No the physics are not different, it is the numbers.

Water temperature, -20c, -10c, -5c, 1c. Ground temperature -20c, -10c, 5c. How far does the solar heat penetrate the surface material? Could it always be -10c just a centimeter below the surface even during max heating? What would be the heat transfer rate? Would the cold ground render the solar heating moot?

It is just a lot of stuff we do not know. A lot more than ambient air temp for sure.

Dfrank

Specifically, it is your speculation. You have not shown any reason NASA should be bound by your speculation.

. . . for not following your speculation. Got it. We've heard this before, but it doesn't explain your conspiracy claim.

Why would they investigate?

I don't think they are stupid either. I think they didn't investigate further because they didn't see anything interesting there to investigate. But this still doesn't answer my question:

If NASA actually did think there was running water, why would they, in your opinion, not want to investigate it?

You're claiming a conspiracy, presumably something about them hiding water. Why would they bother?

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Neverfly,

I am not looking for Martians, just water

Dfrank

You seem to be finding it... Regardless of whether it is really there or not.

Why NASA does what it does is only known by them. They have demonstrated to me they do what they do without requard to the citizens who sent them there. An explanation to the, truth of the anomaly is not something the feel a need to do. I guess they would just leave us to guess, ponder, and if they did a real good job have you follow along and not ask questions.

Even the Phoenix Lander on it way even as we speak is looking only for past life. Now why would the word it that way?

http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/news...20070804a.html

Dfrank

Neverfly,

Time will tell.

You have atmosphere temperature and pressure, you have solar insolation. You can, with great confidence, conclude that liquid surface water would not be stable for an extended period of time.

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Dfrank - you have yet to demonstrate there IS an anolomie.

Also, you do not have the priviledge of being selective in who you reply to. You will answer every challenge posted to you. Consider this warning #2. You are running out of warnings.

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

Dfrank
Your posts are entirely comprised of speculation.
About NASA and their motives and behavior...
About the photo and what's in it...

Lets go to a website and LOOK at ALL the photos they make readily available. This is just ONE photo!
You are being unreasonable, selfish, biased and assuming much more than logic or evidence can back up.

Maybe you should step back and consider EVERYTHING that has been said by everyone in this thread
And the fact that other forums got "mean" and WHY they did.

Im sure you're a nice person. If we worked together Im sure we would get along. Im not attacking your character. Im attacking your tunnel vision and closed-mindedness. You reject logic and evidence in favor of one simple photo.
NASA took the photo and released it quite willingly to the public. Im sure it was analyzed and re-analyzed. With MUCH MORE data than just what the eye suggests.
I honestly am at a loss as to why you keep denying that.

ETA: I personally have no problem with the idea of there being water on Mars. At all.
I look forward to new discoveries. But that doesnt allow me to speculate wildly. These guys studied years of schooling and worked hard to get their jobs. I wish I had that job. They aren't goofy guys that cant tell when they see water. They arent hiding ANYTHING by making the photo public are they?
They KNOW what they are looking at.
If one of my customers acted to me like you are acting to NASA, Id storm off the jobsite in a huff.

My question was:

If NASA actually did think there was running water, why would they, in your opinion, not want to investigate it?

And your answer was:

So, you don't know why they wouldn't investigate this if they agreed with your speculation.

You have not demonstrated that to anyone else.

You have not demonstrated that there is an anomaly to explain.

Questions are fine, but you're making unfounded accusations.

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Why do you write "citizens" when you mean "ME"?

Whose wishes should NASA fulfil?

Sibrel: Look at this rock
Rene: No, look at that one
White: No, no, that one
Icke: Examine this lizard

I conceed

Dfrank

Oh no you don't.

As the original replier to your OP, I can see that there are a host of questions (including the one I asked you in my reply) that you haven't answered yet.

Answer them in a straightforward fashion with objective evidence, or admit you don't have answers. If it's the latter, then, after such an admission, conceding becomes a viable option. And hopefully a learning experience.

You can't take it and go home. It's not your ball.

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A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

I will answer your questions. I do not want anymore question on this subject. I will take me all day to try and find the ones I did not.

Maksutov

1. OK, it's a false color image of a part of the surface of Mars.

The image is on Meridiani Mars taken by Opputonity Rover sol 80.

2. As you said it's a false color image. What's the problem? Are you mistaking the blue tints for water?

I said it was false color because it is. True color is an opinion. The blue tint is nothing to do with water. The water in the bottom of the trench is less blue than the surface material in that filter set.

I think that is it for you.

Neverfly ask

IS it a few feet away by the way? Can we confirm the distance?

That was an estimate from the image angle based on past images and how far up the horizon is in relation to the foreground.

To think all this started because of a misinterpretation of a false color image, something that appears a lot in NASA images (examples; images of Jupiter and Saturn by the Voyagers).

I do hope you learned something here Dfrank; do not attribute to malice what can be attributed to misinterpretation.

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This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

RAF ask

Why is it that you believe your "interpretation" to be superior to actual mission scientists interpretation?????

I do not. I believe they saw the same thing.

Grand lunar,

My interpretation was not based on false color. The anomalies show up just fine in grayscale. My concession is based on my ability to see all the questions and answer them. I am going back now and try and catch up.

If I post again I will be more diligent to answer all questions no matter what.

JayUtah ask

Your only evidence that the feature is water is that to you it looks like water. Why did you not expect to be challenged for real evidence?

I did expect it. References to my mental state and the lack of my scientific understanding I did not expect. I should have in retrospect. They locked Galileo in his house.

Nice wig.