In all fairness, he was talking about me.
And meant it as a joke. I got the joke though it still baffles me that my avatar looks like a girl...
Maybe it's too small to be seen clearly...
I must enlarge my avatar!!

Well, the avatar face looks androgynous at best.

__________________
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

JayUtah

I have been attacked by Neverfly. The image of women wooed me. Her name was Ross repelled me. It is hard to know who my friends are here. Your questions are unknown I shall look back

Dfrank

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Well, we have evidence NOW that he is much more in tune with visual percpetion than reality

JayUtah,

What hogwash are you spewing now? I fully understand the imaging system used on MER. Don't handwave about basic imaging principles as a means of evasion. What is your factual evidence that the substance in question is water?

Water is speculation but the difference in the photon emission to the cameras is significant. If there was not a difference there would not be a difference in the image in grayscale or false color.

Dfrank

How is it significant to your argument? We're back to the same question, what is the evidence?

__________________
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Van,

Photon emission is what differentiates in the visible light spectrum. Makes things seem gray or white. The photo guys try and hide things using the visible, infrared and ultraviolet spectrum. I know and understand. The photo guys can not get much past me.

Dfrank

I think everyone here is familiar with the basic principles. A camera would hardly be useful without light.


Still another unsupported allegation.

Yet, when asked to provide your evidence, you evade. Funny that.

__________________
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

You can make me look stupid but nobody can debate me one on one.

Dfrank

Jim.

It was

Apparently it was a joke, was taken as one, and I replied too quickly. I removed my post, but not before you saw it.

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Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Isaac Asimov

Dfrank i don´t understand your post of the last 2 or 3 pages. I can´t descipher if you are being ironic, if you have gived up, if you are talking nonsenses or if you still debating.

It woud be a pitty if you get banned maybe you should answer the questions or detract the original statements?

I have no interest in making you look stupid. I merely am requesting answers to often repeated questions. You have been asked similar questions by several people here. You have not shown evidence for your speculation. You have not demonstrated that NASA is doing anything wrong for religious or other reasons. It isn't much of a debate.

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

User Dfrank has been suspended for 3 days to ponder the answer to my post, to read the forum rules, including answering direct and pertinent questions and heeding moderator decisions. Please keep this in mind when replying in this thread.

Furthermore, Dfrank's next post, upon returning, will not be more nonsensical machismo, it will be the direct answer I tasked him with giving, or there will be an immediate, and longer suspension.

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

Sorry mate - I stepped out for dinner

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"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

Photon emission is what differentiates in the visible light spectrum. Makes things seem gray or white.

Thank you for Photometry 101. What does that have to do with your argument?

The photo guys try and hide things using the visible, infrared and ultraviolet spectrum.

Are you claiming this photo has been doctored? If so, specifically in what way? Since the MER imaging system can see in those wavelengths, how exactly do you propose to "hide" things using different wavelengths?

I am trained in photography and separately in photographic interpretation and physical photometry. I am familiar with several types of electronic imaging systems. None of what you say makes a lick of sense in those fields. I think you're just throwing out a word salad in the hope that we're laymen and won't see through it.

I know and understand.

People who really do know and understand can explain it easily to others. When you return, I expect you to display the understanding you say you have, provided you can show that it's relevant to your beliefs. Since I have training in that field, I will ask you questions about that display of understanding, and I expect direct, non-evasive responses.

The photo guys can not get much past me.

Now I'm confused. You told us at the beginning of this thread that the anomaly in this photo was immediately visible to the "regular guy," and that all it took was "common sense" to see that the photo was of a pool of water. But now you've gone completely to the opposite extreme. You say something has been deftly hidden in this photo in the visible and near-visible wavelengths. And you say that only people with exceptional skill such as yours cannot be fooled.

It seems you yourself can't even decide what your argument is. That's a common fault among propositions that are primarily against something and will cling to anything that isn't that thing.

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"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

I realize our new friend is taking an enforced vacation, but I'd like to share a couple of experiences real quick.

As I have mentioned lo, these many times, I used to live not far from JPL. A very open facility, all things considered. I saw prototype Mars rovers tested in their parking lot; I saw space probes being built. (Their cleanrooms have giant observation decks; I'm pretty sure I saw work on Hubble.) Not only did they have an annual open house (which is a lot of fun and hugely crowded), but they "adopted" my junior high and judged our science fair projects.

As a result of all this, I have a photo taken of myself using false colour imaging. I am, in this picture, purple and orange. Should NASA have tested me to see if I'm made of Jujubes?

Also, I seem to recall that, in the ATM section, it was brought out that the image in question was actually taken on a slope. Anyone else know anything about that?

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

I knew it was on a slope. But I didnt know that a thread existed that covered it.
I put the picture in front of Dfrank and careful went detail by detail explaining that he was seeing sand that was windblown up agaisnt a slope- causing the illusion of a puddle. Even used illustrations.

I wish I had known sooner that there was a thread that covered it.

Either way- back in the thread- His attitude got pumped up and he was offered a vacation.
Didn't do any good though.

I wasn’t going to participate in this thread, but I see a point that has not been addressed. Rather than trying to “hide” anything with cameras that are able to image in wavelengths outside the (human) visible spectrum, the scientists charged with determining the wavelengths to be imaged are actually trying to image things that would otherwise be invisible to us. IOW, they have chosen wavelengths that will give them additional information necessary to accomplish their primary goal of determining as much about Mars as possible with the least amount of equipment.

Issues such as using panchromatic imaging to get higher resolution, and using IR and UV to determine chemical composition and mineralogy, are more important to these scientists than producing “pretty pictures”.

I know, “photometry 101”, but it IMO it is an important point when discussing imaging by any spacecraft. It is about using the right tools for the job.

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Reality: What a concept!……………………..><Ç(((Ç°>

That was regarding another claim, reported in New Scientist, but with surprisingly similar problems - they didn't look at other information (such as slope, temperature, etc.), used a false color image to dress up their argument, and it was a "look at the picture" argument. In their case, though, they retracted the claim when some of the issues were pointed out. Here's the thread:

Liquid Puddles found by MER rovers?

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Thank you, MentalAvenger - that's a very important point!

__________________
"I have this theory that the Apollo missions were faked when NASA found out that general relativity was wrong because the Earth was expanding due to the Sun's iron core being influenced by magnetic waves from the electric universe after being perturbed by Planet X and thereby causing global warming. Where should I start a thread about this?" ~ ToSeek

"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

Well, are you?

False Color is one of the most interesting aspects of spacecraft imaging, and perhaps one of the most misunderstood. Maybe it is the terminology “false” that creates the misunderstanding. I don’t know. What I do know is that those who do not understand the concept, very often express rather odd ideas about images from Odyssey 2001, MOC, MER etc.

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Reality: What a concept!……………………..><Ç(((Ç°>

I've seen enough wind-blown beaches to be comfortable with my guess that the "stuff" in the bottoms of depressions (which the false-colour images seem to have highlighted) are simply lighter dust among the heavier sand; or something like that.

I've also gotten enough cars stuck on beaches to know that the NASA course-planners would be pretty careful where they make the rovers go.

Having said that, it seems "reasonably possible" that there might be a picture taken by one of the rovers showing their track through such an area. It might be quite useful to know of such a picture - showing rovers tracks through an area where the false-colour (i.e. indicating different "stuff") might make someone think they are seeing standing water.

Has anyone seen such a picture?

(Just an idea; hoping it might ring a bell for someone. I've not seen enough mars rover pictures to know the answer.)


Cheers,

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Ah yes, that too.
I have to wonder if Dfrank even READ what I wrote.

I can't help but wonder what it is in that photo that shows evidence of pooling of water. It makes me wonder if he even knows what that looks like on Earth.

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This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. - Jor-El

Godspeed, John Glenn. - Scott Carpenter

And these atomic bombs that science burst upon the world that night were strange even to the men that used them.
- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

This is the other thread. It actually started in Astronomy (IIRC) and was moved to ATM. Personally, I think the meaning of the photo and water on Mars topic should be discussed there and leave this thread for the conspiracy aspect, but I suspect they are at this point inseparable.

I brought up the slope - I don't know that it is a slope, but it looked that way to me, from that out-of-context single picture. Dfrank asked how, other than water, could you get the different texturing, I showed multiple examples from Earth of similar wind created features.

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At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

In part of my job, we use PC's (and their associated graphics hardware) to drive infrared projection systems.

Since the projectors are capable of higher resolution that individual RGB channels, we encode the output radiance values over multiple colors. Looking at the raw imagery, prior to projection makes for an interesting form of "false color".

Wayne

Simple. Drive the rover up next to the "puddle" and instruct it to toss a rock at it and see what happens.

Hmmmm… Would a pebble tossed onto a shallow “pool” of superfine dust in .38G create ripples?

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Reality: What a concept!……………………..><Ç(((Ç°>

... if there's no one there to hear?

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Relight the Firefly!

"It is quite clear that Occam's razor does not sharpen in your pyramid." (Nicolas)

"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." (Paul Simon)

I expect the Rover(s) can't chuck stuff...

My hope was that they might have just driven through one of these areas; the tracks of the rover itself through the dirt, sand, whatever, would make it clear to the people who think they see water.

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Reality moves at the speed of light.
If the text of this post is blue, it's a "Moderator comment".
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To report a post (even this one) to the moderation team - use the /!\ icon at the top-right of the post.