I do not think we need to drift off from space topics. NASA is a conspiracy lovers dream come true. They can generate more doubt and reason to wonder why than any other government agency except for congress but that’s another forum now.

Example, Take a look at this false color image.

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/081...L2L5L5L7L7.jpg


Now keep in mind the money time and effort it took to get to Mars. Keep in mind that the main reason for going there was discovery. Keep in mind everyone is watching. Their motto is follow the water.

That image above was as close as they got. You would think they might go over and take a look. I believe that if anyone was suited up on the Mars surface with me we would go over and take a look. There is no way to pass up such a juicy target, it is just a few feet away, NOT NASA.

They passed a closer look up to go look at another rock. This goes against human nature and logic. I can understand why people might thing NASA was being less than totally honest.

Dfrank

OK, it's a false color image of a part of the surface of Mars.As you said it's a false color image. What's the problem? Are you mistaking the blue tints for water?Dfrank, you really need to reassess what you've written in your various posts. There seems to be some kind of unsupported obsession growing in them.

__________________
A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

You may be right. Am I the only one that’s sees the ponding in that trench? If I am I apologize.

A mental illusion for sure.

Dfrank

The sand waves create the ilusion.

But i can´t blaim you.

Just look at this image. It´s just looks like a pond, even with an incredible star-fish like object in the bottom.

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...285L2M1-BR.JPG

Yeah that is sand. I can take similar photographs that lead you to believe there is water ( or many other things) when the truth is quite boring.

And that is the ticket isn't it?
To those of us that this stuff is unfamiliar- we think we found something. We get all excited.
I'm glad I don't pay Hoaglands underwear bill.

But to the folks at NASA, its all quite humdrum and routine. They were all over this picture, recognized what it showed with a practised eye and went on to the next.
They don't always think about how the common person will react to seeing it.
The common person doesn't always think about the experienced guys at NASA yawning at such photos- of the likes they have seen so many they have dreams about looking at photos...

The reason most people don't understand the motivations of the teams at NASA is because... they don't work there. They don't diddle over this stuff every day, day in day out, with a lot of knowledge about the lighting, landscapes, weird conditions and photo-taken-then bundled-transmitted-recieved -and interpretted that most people not in that line of work aren't aware of.
Run on sentence. Remember to breathe as you read it.

Here is the famed "Face on Mars as appeared back in the 70's...

Attached Thumbnails

 

Now here is the same "face" as taken recently with better resolution and a different angle. It doesn't look much like a face anymore...

Attached Thumbnails

 

And the last one. As you can see
ANY resemblance to a face is totally gone now.

When that photo first was taken, the folks at NASA even said "Sheesh! It looks like a face!" They chuckled and passed it on. Because they were well aware that it was not a face at all. But I don't think they quite realized how many people would think it really was and end up with a cult following...

Attached Thumbnails

 

I can understand from a few hundred miles up that things may get a little fuzzy. This was a few feet away. I understand the jpeg haze. To say this dust is going to form a flat surface pond and discolor the trench area, I am not aware of such a dry process. That is what threw me.

Yeah but it's more common than you think. In such photos
and photos like these, you are LOOKING for something...anything.

But I can show you Earth taken photos with the same effect.

A good way to look at it is to think about Hand Drawing a picture.
You start drawing say a portrait or a scene
And suddenly you find yourself aware of puzzling minor details that you never noticed before.
For me I'm astounded every single time- by shadows. Seriously. They are always much darker and wider spread than I had originally noticed. Wrinkles in clothing etc do it to me too. When I observe the minute details so I can accurately draw it... I see things that look quite strange.
Like saying a normal word over and over again until it sounds funny and not normal anymore.

I never noticed how pronounced and strange a tiny mole on a friends face was... Until I drew her protrait for her.

ETA: It isnt just JPG artifacts. It is angle, lighting, atmospheric ( or lack of) conditions... many many things that can mislead.

Even your own eyes will do it in the desert. You are thirsty and see a mirage of water. Next thing you know- that datburned puddle got up and ran a 100 feet further on.

Hold still puddle! I thirst!
Now look... the things just teasing me...
C'mere you!

dfrank...in the other "Mars water" thread (I don't know why you felt the need to start another one), you posted that you "didn't know" if NASA were involved in a cover-up or not.

Now in this thread you seem to be strongly implying that NASA is involved in a cover-up.

So which is it??

__________________
"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

IS it a few feet away by the way? Can we confirm the distance?

R.A.F

I did not intend for this to become the same tread. When I first started it I gave an example of how I believe conspiracies get started. The example was why didn’t they go and take a closer look.

One reply was they knew what it was already, yawned and drove on. This may be true. They may be able to look understand the process and move on. Regular people like me would say why, are they hiding something, are they stupid, just like your reply in the other thread.

The birth of conspiracy. That was my point here.

Dfrank

I hope you can see the simplicity of it then.

I just went and read the other thread- as I don't go to ATM much...

But Dfrank you seem to indeed believe that there is a hydro-cycle and possibly life on Mars.

The images themselves are not much more than pretty pictures.
They are used primarily as a slight visual aid. We like a picture to go with the data.

But in truth, they play a (relatively)minor role in the study of the planet.
Anyone who feels this is a wrong statement tell me so!

The studies about the planets are done many ways with many techniques and tools. We know quite a bit about Venus but don't have many photos of it. The danged camera keeps melting. Awful ungrateful of the camera...

You also mentioned more than once- that you were seeing something that everyone else wasn't. Isn't that a clue?
You mentioned that other forums are mean.

Well, sometimes people get frustrated when a person won't listen to reason. Without controlling the temper first- a mean post can result. It's NOT that they are mean people by any means. Its that they get frustrated when a person will simply NOT listen to reason and science but keep repeating statements that have already been shown clearly to be incorrect.

I get mean too, sometimes.

ETA: (edit to add) by the way: there is no such thing as "common sense science".

Neverfly,

Humans are visual creatures. I think the visible data must match the numerical data.

To give a map of Mars showing bound hydrogen is cool. How is it bound? Ice, or in the rocks themselves. Good data to have but inconclusive. The key to most of my frustration is how easy it is to ignore the visible data when it goes against the mainstream. I feel like a cow being prodded along to the slaughter.

I like to see and if my Earth eyes are no good anywhere but Earth that would be a shame. Space exploration would be moot.

You cant be mean on this forum, that’s the rules.

Dfrank

The reason the rovers search out rocks, is that any history of water on the surface of mars would be recorded in the rocks. They have an abrasion tool that can be used to grind of a bit of the surface of a rock, and examine the lower layers for evidence of water, and other geological processes.

__________________
There is no problem that cannot be solved by a suitable application of high explosives - US Army Demolitions School

I just saw Hayley's comet, she waved, Said "why you always running in place? Even the man in the moon disappeared, Somewhere in the stratosphere" - Shinedown

http://worldsofothersuns.home.comcast.net/

My point exactly,

They go to the rocks to look for water, even if they need to drive around a pond to get there.

The birth of conspiracy.

Dfrank

The only "pond" is in your mind.

__________________
"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

Why is it that you believe your "interpretation" to be superior to actual mission scientists interpretation?????

__________________
"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

Except that the picture doesn't show a pond, liquid water cannot exist on the surface of Mars because the atmospheric pressure is too low, if there was a pool of liquid water on Mars it would just boil away. The extreme thinness of Mar's atmosphere has been known about for a long time and verified from sources other than NASA (if you are willing to spend the money and time you can even do it yourself). The properties of water have been known for an even longer time and are extremely well supported, and are quite easy to verify.

__________________
"Any Sufficiently Analyzed Magic is Indistinguishable from SCIENCE!" -Agatha Heterodyne

"Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't understand it." -Florence Ambrose

Evidently Dfrank doesn't believe that.

Which is actually Dfrank's problem evaluating evidence...he bases his conclusions on belief and not on evidence.

__________________
"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

Exactly. And yet you refuse to "see" that. Dfrank, You said we are visual creatures. I said that we LIKE to have the visual... But it by no means is compelling evidence. The eyes are notoriously unreliable.

You said that if the visual doesn't meet up with ... ALLLL the other available data... That that must mean that ALLLL the other data is wrong?!
That is totally backwards from reality.

Oh, and because there is a rule that says I must be nice
doesn't mean I have to be nice. It just means Ill have to accpet the price to be mean.

In just THIS very short thread- you have all the answers you need to see why there is no pond.
Why they went to look at rocks.
Why there is no conspiracy.
if at this point you continue to talk about ponds, puddles and conspiracies in any manner that is NOT an intelligent question, one can only assume that you have no interest whatsoever in knowing the truth...
You are only interested in the pretty picture you paint inside your mind.

I was amused by that too, because he said he studies atmospheric science.
It seems that doesn't include Martian atmosphere. Maybe all planets have a Terran astmosphere

The birth of conspiracy.

No, the birth of a conspiracy theory -- people applying their inexperienced personal interpretations to things, disregarding the state of the art, and then insisting that those interpretations must be the only correct ones because they appeal to intuition.

Science was invented prcisely because common sense doesn't succeed very often at explaining the whys and wherefores of the natural world. The scientific method is a systematic way of eliminating what you think you know in favor of what you can truly observe with as little interference as possible from unconscious guesswork.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Like Spontaneous Generation JayUtah?
The visual evidence was that old rags spawned rats and that rotting meat spawned flies.
And good luck convincing the common man of the time otherwise!
There were holes in the rags then rats appeared!
There was just meat- then little crawly things growing in it-that turned into flies!

Yes, good examples. Intuition works well enough as a defense mechanism. That's why we evolved it. If "bad air" and "bad water" are observed to cause illness, intuition says to keep away from them. But as a method of understanding it's not very useful. In fact, it's counterproductive for that. You don't learn about microbes if you dwell on notions of evil spirits, even if that wrong notion helps you evade death.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Ok, I did not want to go into this on this thread but you guys are piling on.
Lets start with the atmospheric pressure sense that is an area I claim to have a little knowledge.

I say 6.1mb of pressure is the triple point of water and has been exceeded at the Rover site. There seems to be some high level scientific people here, What say you.

Dfrank

Your only evidence that the feature is water is that to you it looks like water. Why did you not expect to be challenged for real evidence?

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Wait a minute; I thought we were going to do some science here. I am an atmospheric type guy. You guys and gals seem to think pressure is a problem at the rover site I say it is not.

Exactly what does this mean?? It certainly tells me nothing of what you have accomplished in schooling/advanced degrees, that sort of thing.

So please...expond on what you mean by "atmospheric type guy"?

...and saying "it is not" makes your claim extraordinary. By the rules of this board, the burden on proof is on you to demonstrate that your claim is a reasonable interpretation of the available evidence.

...but If all you're going to say is "it looks like water to me", or "I don't see a problem", then this conversation isn't going to last very long.

Direct question...can you present evidence that will back up your claim of standing water on Mars??

If you cannot, then please withdraw your claim.

__________________
"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov