In This discussion on Thisisbigbrother.com we have a "debate" as to the value of spending anything whatsoever on space travel and the moon hoax in one go.

Anyone care to go over, sign up and engage as experts?

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The space technology R&D has resulted in amazing leaps in space technology...satellite design, airframes, engines, guidance...
Without these advanced capabilities, GPS, sat-phones, worldwide instant communications and all it has brought us, would not be possible.
The manned spaceflight portion of the world's spaceflight budget remains small I suspect. And spaceflight technology dollars can't really be compared to Federal education or social program dollars. When the space folks get it wrong, everyone knows...quickly. Social and education dollar failures are generally apparent, but not nearly as headline grabbing...usually.
Hoping not to go into the wrong territory on this forum, it bothers me when folks want Federal oversight (aka funding) of the grade school up the street. It's a question of local knowledge and efficiency, who knows best.

Personally I don't think funding should be made available for moon hoaxes.

So has anyone registered over there? I noticed a messierhunter who seems to give the BAUT party line and wondered if he was on BAUT, but can not find that name in the members list over here.

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Think of the children!™

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I acknowledge there is a valid argument that another manned lunar program is not worth the money it would cost and that any further exploration of the moon could be done more effectively and cheaply with unmanned missions.

There is also a valid argument as to whether manned space flight should be the focus of the space program. GPS, communications satellites and other beneficial space technologies are often not dirived from manned flight.

Many of the best scientific discoveries came from unmanned probes and satellite sensors like Soho. Of course the counter argument could include the work done to repair and upgrade Hubble.

So... I can see a legitimate argument in some of that stuff...
(I'm not saying I necessarily agree, but it's a valid argument)

But based on the fact that the thread has degenerated to the moon hoax and the whole CT'er banter of "I can't believe you are brainwashed by the us government which is such a con. Get with it you're an idiot. The pro-moon-landing sites are all full of garbage" ...

That stuff is so idiotic it just makes me shake my head...

I don't see it worth my time from what's presented here, frankly. Let them have thier delusions and post "Ur gay for believing in the HOAX you sheeples" on youtube oneliners. Unless there's some possibility of redemption, or it being a high-profile site like this, where others are going to read, arguing for the sake of arguing with the assinine isn't something I have time for.

Can you post a convincing reason to join and debate there?

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"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

wow.. right at the end there, that one guy brought out my favorite anti-space argument.. you know the whole "throwing money into space" routine. that is just being intellectually lazy, since every dollar spent stays right here on earth and goes to people that buy things and pay taxes with it... here... on earth...

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The.. Best.. Thread..Ever...

I'd rather stay away from such a place.

I often am amused at claims of money on space seen as waste, and claims on how if it was stopped, things would get better.

If that was true, why then did bigotry and poverty still exist after the huge budget cuts hit NASA after Apollo?
Indeed, the space program gets a rather small chunk of change, especially compared to some misguided campaigns, which I shall not name here.

And did not someone once mention elsewhere that social programs get budgets in the trillions? That's even more than the navy's annual budget!

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- H.G Wells, The World Set Free

To the conspiracy crowd, radiation is a big Boogey Man that inspires terror and death in all who encounter it. - JayUtah

So how was I doing over there?

Shall I ask them to come to this thread?

I did give the link to Phil's site and Clavius

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What "valid argument"?? You have stated a personal, subjective opinion, that's all.

So people are claiming that the money spent on the space program is actually spent in space? Well, that is pretty silly.

Thing is, I have never actually heard anyone make this argument. Having been a lurker here for a while, I often hear people ridicule this argument that is never actually made, perhaps as a way to avoid addressing the real argument.

Now, how to respond if somebody asks whether money spent on space exploration is worth it? There are at least two ways to respond.

One way would be to provide a careful economic analysis examining the costs and benefits of space exploration. Quantitative, not just a lot of hand waving. The money spent on space exploration could have been spent on other things instead. Do the benefits that result from space exploration exceed the benefits from some alternate use of that money? If so, it should be shown quantitatively, in a way that would withstand rigorous scrutiny by economic experts. (Kind of like the way alternate physics posts are exposed to rigorous scrutiny here.)

The other way to respond is to mis-characterize the question and then ridicule it, preferably will all the adrenalin rush of someone defending his latest conspiracy theory. Examples (I'm making up the wording, but not the thoughts here!):

Oh yeah? So you're saying space exploration doesn't provide benefits? What about communications satellites? (Usually, the person has not argued that space exploration doesn't provide benefits, but rather, that the benefits aren't worth the cost. Quantities please - how much did it cost, what is the value provided? If I propose a project to spend the entire GDP of the world for the next 45 years, and the output of my project would be one paper clip, would that be worthwhile? The project does provide benefits - it provides a paper clip, and paper clips are useful. Also, let us suppose that communications satellites do pass an economic test. Does that then mean all space exploration is worthwhile?)

Oh yeah? So you're saying the space shuttle goes up with a big load of cash and just dumps it into space? That money is spent here on earth, and creates jobs! (Funny, I never heard anyone say the space shuttle goes up with a big load of cash and just dumps it into space. Oddly enough, if the money were spent instead on manufacturing large numbers of giant marble statues praising the eternal glory of BAUT, that money would also be spent on earth. Maybe someone would like to quantity the benefits provided by spending it one way rather than another?)

Oh yeah? Well the amount spent on space exploration is only a small amount, and wouldn't even make a dent in poverty or this or that or the other thing. (Funny, I thought people were making the argument that spending money on space exploration was making a huge difference in the quality of life. But in any event, suppose it is a small amount in the grand scheme of things. So what? Either it is worth the amount spent, or it isn't. If it is, show it. If it isn't, what, we should just keep spending it anyway, because it's not such a huge amount? Is it ok to be wasteful with small amounts, just not big ones? I could spend my entire income for the next ten years to buy comic books that I never read, and that therefore provide no benefit to me. My income for the next ten years, if spent on reducing poverty, performing medical research, or some other such thing would hardly make a difference at all. Does it follow then that I should go and buy the comic books?)

Oh yeah? Well every piece of technology ever invented has its roots in the space program. (A great deal of technology was invented before space exploration was even contemplated, and much technological progress would no doubt have continued after. Every business uses post-it notes. Should I attribute the entire world economy to the invention of the post-it note? Maybe the budget for space exploration should be put into post-it note development. But in any event, there are never quantities attached to this counter-argument. It provides a benefit, so it must be worth it, regardless of the size of the cost or the benefit.)

All of these intellectually lazy arguments falling into the second category are advanced here on a regular basis. Arguments of the first one never is, which makes the constant promotion of this board by its members to be a haven of rational thinking ring rather hollow.

I haven't done any kind of economic analysis of the benefits of space exploration. I have a prior belief about it, but if someone can make a case that comes to a different conclusion than my prior belief, I'm willing to listen. So far, I haven't heard such an argument here that wouldn't have an economist rolling on the floor laughing, and I'm not optimistic that I ever will.

Let the flaming begin.

It's not necessary or even possible to quantify the benefits of space program spinoffs. For example, digital image processing was developed by JPL. How would one go about determining the economic benefits of this technology? As another example, NASA came up with improvements to MRI technology. Again, this is not something that can be quantified economically, nor should it be. Also, in my opinion space programs inspire young people to study science. How do we quantify the benefits of this? There is simply no way attach a number to the large majority of these spinoffs that would “withstand rigorous scrutiny by economic experts.”

You asked “how to respond if somebody asks whether money spent on space exploration is worth it?” I don't believe that most people are asking whether it's worth it from a purely economic standpoint. If they are, they're missing the point. As far as I know, NASA hasn't claimed in any of their budget requests that there will be a net economic benefit to the programs in question. The budgets get approved because they are believed to be worthwhile from a scientific perspective. You can't put a number on this any more than you can put a number on the benefits of spending on medicine or the arts.

Your “one way” or “the other way” argument mis-characterizes the question and then ridicules it. The argument for spending on space programs is that they are worthwhile because they increase our body of knowledge about the universe. In some cases there is a spinoff that has an economic, medical or scientific benefit.

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Sorry to open this can of worms, but my intention was for those defending space travel and the integrity of the moon landings to register with TiBB and give expert testimony over there, better than I can.

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First off...welcome to the board...

Let's see if I got this right...you have come to a conclusion based on belief alone...you have no evidence in support of that conclusion, and you want someone to prove you wrong.

Does that about cover it?

If the only reason you are here is to initiate an argument, then you have come to the wrong board.

If you believe that there are no economic benefits to be derived from space exploration, then present your case.

...it might also be a good idea to go over the rules of this board before you proceed.


edited to add...and just what is the "conspiracy" involved here??

RAF, that would be with the OP, not Danielk. This fits.

We also didn't mention artificial joints like hip, knees and knuckles that are all a spin off of space tech.

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"The beauty of that discussion of averages is that you don't have to be an expert in Apollo or in photography in order to see where this time study "analysis" breaks down. You just have to be, well...not an idiot." -JayUtah

I would, but I'm no expert. The value of exploring space is not ending up like the dinosaurs or Krypton.

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"Carl Sagan sent a message to ET,
Neil Armstrong walked in the Sea of Tranquility
Steve Squyers built Spirit and Opportunity
Dan Haylen upchucked in zero gravity." -Brent Simon, The Space Camp Song

Actually, I run into people arguing that those aren't valid reasons for space exploration. Usually, they're part of the "mankind is a blight upon the Earth" crowd. The argument takes one of two forms:

1. Until humans learn to solve all our problems here on Earth, then we have no right to move to other worlds, taking our problems with us.

2. Humans will never solve our own problems, and the world, the solar system, and, in fact, the Universe in general would be better off if we went completely extinct.

Note I disagree with these arguments, and strenuously argue against them.

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