Chatroom
 

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum > Space and Astronomy > Conspiracy Theories
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

   

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #421 (permalink)  
Old 30-October-2007, 02:16 AM
KaiYeves's Avatar
KaiYeves KaiYeves is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Currently on assignment on planet shown in avatar photo
Posts: 7,785
Default

Quote:
It always surprises me with CT believers that they, well, believe that any rock on Mars that happens to look artificially carved is in fact so done. The phenomenon of rock structures being weathered into what appear to be human carvings is extremely common here on Earth, especially in the southwestern USA. Sleeping Ute Mountain (looks like a Ute Indian lying down on his side) near Cortez, Colorado is one example, as is Capitol Reef in south-central Utah (a prominent feature there looks like a capitol building's dome). I don't hear legions of CTBs insisting that that Utes carved a mountain to look like one of their chiefs, or a patriotic pioneer carved a capitol dome into the red-rock of southern Utah. They're accepted as merely eroded by wind and water. Mars too has wind--and perhaps water--and therefore has erosion. Is it that hard to see that geology is geology, even on another planet?
Even worse is their tendency to see objects in ancient art and claim that it is "alien technology".
Puh-leez. The Maya glyph for "book" looks like a hamburger and I don't see them claiming that this mean the Maya had Big Macs.
__________________
"If you think the LHC will create black holes, you might as well believe Hobbits are at the bottom of your garden."- Dr. Mike Inglis
Rovers forever! - ToSeek
"Carl Sagan sent a message to ET,
Neil Armstrong walked in the Sea of Tranquility
Steve Squyers built Spirit and Opportunity
Dan Haylen upchucked in zero gravity." -Brent Simon, The Space Camp Song
Reply With Quote
  #422 (permalink)  
Old 30-October-2007, 03:41 AM
Van Rijn's Avatar
Van Rijn Van Rijn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 10,648
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by triplebird View Post
It always surprises me with CT believers that they, well, believe that any rock on Mars that happens to look artificially carved is in fact so done. The phenomenon of rock structures being weathered into what appear to be human carvings is extremely common here on Earth, especially in the southwestern USA. [snip] Is it that hard to see that geology is geology, even on another planet?
The issue is that they've convinced themselves that whatever they're looking at is special. Usually, when you bring that up, the response is along the lines of, "Of course those are natural, but anyone should be able to see that [fill in here] is different." They don't (and usually never will) understand that they're making a subjective claim.
__________________
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser
Reply With Quote
  #423 (permalink)  
Old 30-October-2007, 03:58 AM
Noclevername's Avatar
Noclevername Noclevername is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 10,774
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
The issue is that they've convinced themselves that whatever they're looking at is special. Usually, when you bring that up, the response is along the lines of, "Of course those are natural, but anyone should be able to see that [fill in here] is different." They don't (and usually never will) understand that they're making a subjective claim.
Cognitive dissonance, otherwise known as rationalizing. If it could power a car it'd be our greatest natural resource.
__________________
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
Illuminati's Razor-The most complicatedly evil answer is usually the most correct answer. - Fazor
"Every book is a children's book if the kid can read." - Mitch Hedberg
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort
Reply With Quote
  #424 (permalink)  
Old 30-October-2007, 03:58 AM
01101001's Avatar
01101001 01101001 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 11,472
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
Jay, I don't understand what you mean by "provenance", in this context.
I'm not Jay, but the word for me:

Wikipedia: Provenance:

Quote:
Provenance is the origin or source from which something comes, and the history of subsequent owners (also known in some fields as chain of custody). The term is often used in the sense of place and time of manufacture, production or discovery. Comparative techniques, expert opinion, written and verbal records and the results of tests are often used to help establish provenance.
So if someone shows you an image that has a facelike object on the surface of Mars, and claims it means something, they should at a minimum, be able to demonstrate the origin of the image and that it hasn't been damaged or corrupted between there and your eyeballs, i.e. that it really is an image of something on the surface of Mars.

Once that is established, then you can begin considering just how facelike the thing on Mars is and what the implications of it are.
__________________
0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 ...
Reply With Quote
  #425 (permalink)  
Old 30-October-2007, 05:35 AM
jt-3d's Avatar
jt-3d jt-3d is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 1,800
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
The proof that his face photos are fake comes from the photos themselves in the form of internal inconsistency.
Or in this case, internal consistency i.e. the face is obviously the same face copied onto different backgrounds. (I assume we are still talking about marsrevealer's prop photos? Thread jumping confuses the addleminded.)
__________________
You're a coward and a liar and a thOOF - Bart Sibrel
Reply With Quote
  #426 (permalink)  
Old 30-October-2007, 02:41 PM
JayUtah's Avatar
JayUtah JayUtah is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,018
Default

Jay, I don't understand what you mean by "provenance", in this context.

I'll agree with the Wiki definition: I mean simply the documented origin, for example being able to say, "That's AS11-39-5903, and I got my copy from the Lunar and Planetary Institute's online digital collection," or, "It's a photograph I bought from the Smithsonian and scanned on my home computer." In the art world it means a documented sequence of ownership that establishes the current owner's legal right to an art object (to discourage theft). In the legal world it means who has had custody of important evidence since it was collected.

In MR's case, his provenance for his photos stops at frame-grab from a television show. The producers don't remember where the pictures came from, and they can't be found in any of the ordinary archives. Thus the meager provenance does not support a case for authenticity.
__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base
Reply With Quote
  #427 (permalink)  
Old 30-October-2007, 08:34 PM
KaiYeves's Avatar
KaiYeves KaiYeves is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Currently on assignment on planet shown in avatar photo
Posts: 7,785
Default

Quote:
Provenance is the origin or source from which something comes, and the history of subsequent owners (also known in some fields as chain of custody). The term is often used in the sense of place and time of manufacture, production or discovery. Comparative techniques, expert opinion, written and verbal records and the results of tests are often used to help establish provenance.
Yes, which is why museums try not to buy artifacts of "Unknown Provinance".

I can say "I am the curator of Roman antiquities, who are you?" in a scarily realistic British accent.
(Just thought I'd share that.)
__________________
"If you think the LHC will create black holes, you might as well believe Hobbits are at the bottom of your garden."- Dr. Mike Inglis
Rovers forever! - ToSeek
"Carl Sagan sent a message to ET,
Neil Armstrong walked in the Sea of Tranquility
Steve Squyers built Spirit and Opportunity
Dan Haylen upchucked in zero gravity." -Brent Simon, The Space Camp Song
Reply With Quote
  #428 (permalink)  
Old 31-October-2007, 12:50 PM
triplebird's Avatar
triplebird triplebird is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Posts: 198
Default

I was thinking more about Hoagland and the Face(tm) yesterday and wondered where he would even get the idea that something like that would be made artificially. Here on Earth, nobody has ever changed a landform into a monument on such a scale that it could be seen from space1. Mount Rushmore, for example, is difficult to see from directly overhead at reasonable altitude. An orbiter can't see it at all. And Rushmore is one side of a mountain; it's not like a whole mesa was carved into the faces of George, Abe, Tommy, and Teddy...

My next question would be why such a sculpture would be built. Any ground-based Martian paying homage to the Face wouldn't even know what he was looking at...it won't look like a face from one side, where they would see it from. Blasting a mesa apart takes a huge amount of resources, so there should be at least a worthwhile reason to do so. I doubt the Face was intended as an interplanetary billboard.2

Which brings me to my next question: Building on that scale takes lots of time, lots of Martianpower, and lots of energy. Where were/are the legions of Martian sculptors on harnesses jackhammering away? Where were/are the (probably massive) blasts to carve out sections? (Or, equivalently, the massive laser to shave the mesa from overhead?) Why didn't/doesn't anyone notice a massive landform changing shape? On the scale of engineering mesa-carving is, this work should have been easily visible to an orbiter, and possibly even from Earth.


1What would be the point? Again, it wouldn't look like anything from the side, which is all you'd see from the ground.

2Which renders the issue of "sibling" Faces, which is what this thread was based upon, moot.
__________________
"WARNING: Being launched into space is hazardous."--Lonewulf

Triplebrick is no longer birdable. It was fun while it lasted.

"N'oubliez pas: l'ours n'est pas un nounours!"--Nounours de Salmonberry
Reply With Quote
  #429 (permalink)  
Old 31-October-2007, 06:33 PM
Noclevername's Avatar
Noclevername Noclevername is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 10,774
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by triplebird View Post
I was thinking more about Hoagland and the Face(tm) yesterday and wondered where he would even get the idea that something like that would be made artificially.
Because he's nuts?

Serious answer; Because he starts with the assumption that it's an artifact, and doesn't bother to think about the hows and whys.
__________________
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
Illuminati's Razor-The most complicatedly evil answer is usually the most correct answer. - Fazor
"Every book is a children's book if the kid can read." - Mitch Hedberg
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort
Reply With Quote
  #430 (permalink)  
Old 31-October-2007, 11:41 PM
Donnie B.'s Avatar
Donnie B. Donnie B. is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 5,283
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by triplebird View Post
My next question would be why such a sculpture would be built. Any ground-based Martian paying homage to the Face wouldn't even know what he was looking at...it won't look like a face from one side, where they would see it from. Blasting a mesa apart takes a huge amount of resources, so there should be at least a worthwhile reason to do so. I doubt the Face was intended as an interplanetary billboard.
I've always assumed the theory is that it was put there for us to find, much like the "monolith" in 2001: A Space Odyssey.

On that basis, it would probably be a mistake to land a shipful of homo erectus near the Face.

I wonder what the facebuilders did with all the construction debris? You don't have to look very far at Mt. Rushmore, but the Martian Face seems to be surrounded by an uncluttered, level surface.
__________________
Bring back Firefly!

"It is quite clear that Occam's razor does not sharpen in your pyramid." (Nicolas)

"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." (Paul Simon)
Reply With Quote
  #431 (permalink)  
Old 01-November-2007, 01:54 AM
KaiYeves's Avatar
KaiYeves KaiYeves is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Currently on assignment on planet shown in avatar photo
Posts: 7,785
Default

Quote:
Quote:
I was thinking more about Hoagland and the Face(tm) yesterday and wondered where he would even get the idea that something like that would be made artificially.
Because he's nuts?
;-D
__________________
"If you think the LHC will create black holes, you might as well believe Hobbits are at the bottom of your garden."- Dr. Mike Inglis
Rovers forever! - ToSeek
"Carl Sagan sent a message to ET,
Neil Armstrong walked in the Sea of Tranquility
Steve Squyers built Spirit and Opportunity
Dan Haylen upchucked in zero gravity." -Brent Simon, The Space Camp Song
Reply With Quote
  #432 (permalink)  
Old 09-May-2008, 08:09 PM
Omniscient's Avatar
Omniscient Omniscient is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4
Default ESA Image Of Cydonia, Mars

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/6...lpaperlhw9.gif


Note from moderator: please do not post huge images inline. - ToSeek

Last edited by ToSeek; 09-May-2008 at 10:18 PM. Reason: Made inline image a link
Reply With Quote
  #433 (permalink)  
Old 09-May-2008, 08:59 PM
Omniscient's Avatar
Omniscient Omniscient is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4
Default Same Image Looking Up Get It


http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/482...lpaper1uz9.gif

Last edited by ToSeek; 09-May-2008 at 10:19 PM. Reason: Made huge inline image a link
Reply With Quote
  #434 (permalink)  
Old 09-May-2008, 10:44 PM
Matherly Matherly is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,279
Default

Um... huh?
__________________
Carl Matherly

Offical Battlestar Galactica Apologist

Named Time Magazine's 2006 "Person of the Year"
Reply With Quote
  #435 (permalink)  
Old 09-May-2008, 11:12 PM
Omniscient's Avatar
Omniscient Omniscient is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4
Default Images

You Kill The Point Removing The Images Thanks
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5...copypo2mz6.gif

Moderator note: The image is not removed - it's easy enough to access via the link. Meanwhile, I'll cut you some slack because you're new here, but if you override a moderator again, you'll no longer be welcome on this forum.
__________________
The Lion Roars His Phoenix Soars StarMans Home
Reply With Quote
  #436 (permalink)  
Old 09-May-2008, 11:18 PM
captain swoop's Avatar
captain swoop captain swoop is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 5,375
Default

what point?

have i missed something?
__________________
'The eye can only see what the mind is prepared to accept'
Reply With Quote
  #437 (permalink)  
Old 09-May-2008, 11:34 PM
Grashtel Grashtel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 664
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omniscient View Post
You Kill The Point Removing The Images Thanks
It is extremely impolite to post big images inline, instead you should just include a link. Big images cause a variety of problems such as breaking the formating of the forum (having to scroll sideways to see the ends of lines is bloody annoying), taking a long time to load for people with slow connections, and generally being annoying.

Plus I second Captain Swoop's point, what is your point? Words make a much better mode of communication than just posting big images.
__________________
Girl: Mister Darwin! The stupid people are breeding and taking over the planet!
Charles Darwin: Tut tut, little girl, don't worry! I'll take care of them with my CHAINSAW OF NATURAL SELECTION! Ahahahahahhaha!!!!!!
-QUeen of Wands 12/08/2003
Reply With Quote
  #438 (permalink)  
Old 10-May-2008, 01:18 AM
Joe Boy's Avatar
Joe Boy Joe Boy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Maplewood, Minnesota
Posts: 960
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grashtel View Post
It is extremely impolite to post big images inline, instead you should just include a link. Big images cause a variety of problems such as breaking the formating of the forum (having to scroll sideways to see the ends of lines is bloody annoying), taking a long time to load for people with slow connections, and generally being annoying.

Plus I second Captain Swoop's point, what is your point? Words make a much better mode of communication than just posting big images.
Being one of the forum's few recovering "woo woo's", it would seem that I would be a little easier to convince with a provacative picture of what some would perceive as a face. However, I looked at the large photo up and down and sideways and see nothing but a landscape of rock with a few craters. So what is the point? Show me something I can work with or better yet say something I can hang my woo hat on pal--joe
Reply With Quote
  #439 (permalink)  
Old 10-May-2008, 03:03 AM
Hans's Avatar