Well, at least this proves that Serenitude can't predict the future...

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See? Because of me, now there's a warning. -Homer Simpson

Let's see, for each of type of hoax previously referred:
- how difficult it is to create it;
- how credible is the evidence presented;
- verifiability and cross examination.

You left out "Was it actually hoaxed?"

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"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

If the mods could it would be a bit like minority report, they see about to post something your not suppose to and bam your banned before you did anything.

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If it's just us, it seems like an awful waste of space.
Contact Carl Sagan

http://davidsuniverse.wordpress.com/

The scary part is that in this case, I think that I can - and apparently, so can you (cue spooky music).

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Apparently a large group of amateur astronomers are taking very similar photographs.

Here is an ESA webpage with a variety of submissions from various people of the ISS, mostly across Europe.

Here is a huge page from hobbyspace.com on observing and photographing satellites and includes various examples, including the ISS.

A very detailed German page tracking changes in the ISS over time.

A UK page of ISS and shuttle pictures, taken with a webcam mounted to their scope.

Now Matt, are all these people in the conspiracy too?

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At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

Well honestly the scope of this conspiracy is mind boggling.

It includes not only amateur astronomers but every space faring nation of the Earth..USA, Russia, China, Eurpope, Japan ..et al. I mean seriously Matt the scope of your claim isnt just thousands involved, but millions of coconspirators....both willing and unwilling, which now includes me and many here.

I really look forward to any kind of evidence at all on this one. It's just mind boggling how many folks have to be involved to prove you right on this one.

I thought the Planet X one was out there...but jeesh!

Sorry for the rant, but this one nagged at me for some reason and I had to get that off of my chest :P I know I do not posses an extensive scientific background as most here and am only an amateur enthusist about anything having to do with science, but that was building up inside and I had to get it out there...

...there I'm spent!

Vons

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Mission Control : "Please don't kick the robot Bill. "

You, Occam and others aren't alone.

I seriously showed some negotiation skills as I fought with me about posting what I really wanted to say. I wasn't an easy opponent but I had me on my side.

In the end I decided to listen to me (the me saying not to say it not the me saying to say it) as I had inequivacably beaten myself in a fair debate. I just couldn't beat me <shrug>

It was impressive really.
I wouldn't want to go head to head with me. I tell you what.



...er....

There are too many to fit into one post. NONE of your statements are 'backed by the scientific method'.

I'm glad you realize that Nostradamus is a charlatan, but Nostradamus also used the Bible to allegedly predict the future and what events would precede 'End Times'. Please explain the difference between you and Nostradamus.

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The dose makes the poison--Paracelsus (1493-1541) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

I don't know. That's why I'm asking--Noclevername

Intelligence may not be clearly defined, but you know stupid when you see it--Noclevername

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge--Carl Sagan (1934-1996)

this post is cloned. I suggest we name the post below this one Dolly.

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

Thanks to this thread I now know that 6 people I've seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears in real life (hence confirming that at least these people exist, in order to limit the scope of the hoax you know...) and used to admire, are liars. One of them claims to have flown on the shuttle. One of them claims to have been to the moon. One of them claims to have been to MiR. 2 of them claim to have been to the ISS. One claims to have been to the ISS and claims he's going again in short order.

I really must take more care who to believe in the future. Thanks Matt. You really opened my eyes.

end of sarcasm.

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

So much for science. How did the Apollo astronauts plant those fake mirrors on the moon's surface? See Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment. . . .

They are fake too... obviously

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"Who does not know anything, must believe everything."
Baroness Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach 1830-1916
our animal welfare board and organisation

Wow, the things that get said after one logs off for the night... Incidently, I did shoot the color image in the presence of others, at least online; I directly streamed the video feed live to the public on Second Life for the interested to see. Even you, matt, are more than welcome to come and watch the observing sessions that I do live on SL. Now I do see that you're on a three day break and I do hope that after that is over you either prove your case against me or apologize, but whatever the result, I do volunteer at public viewing sessions where I provide truly live views of satellites at the eyepiece; I don't just "shoot pictures" live, I also provide regular telescopic views of satellites to the public using regular eyepieces. In fact using regular eyepieces for "real life" live viewing is much easier than taking a picture; eyepieces provide a much wider field of view than any given camera that's suitable for the job, and so it's much more forgiving of telescope drive tracking inaccuracies than a camera is (provided you have a way of tracking it automatically with a computer; most don't). You can see this for yourself at any public viewing that has an amateur satellite tracker, provided that the space station is going to pass overhead early enough in the evening to see it and the weather is clear. I do hope that one day you find a viewing party where such an amateur is available to provide views of the space station so that you can finally see it for yourself. It's an incredible sight in real life, it really is, not to mention the impact it would have on your theories.

Matt, when you come back -

1. I too have often seen, with my own eyes, the ISS and Shuttle passing overhead. Their appearance is predicted by the exact same orbital mechanics (and software using said orbital mechanics) that governs the orbits - and thus the appearance to ground observers - of satellites that you do admit to exist. So,
1a. Are you saying I am not telling the truth?
1b. What exactly permits certain satellites you believe in to exist, but not the Shuttle and ISS? Note that many of the satellites in which you do believe have orbits very similar to those of the Shuttle and ISS, and others are in much higher orbits. What exactly allows the one but not the other?

2. I have direct personal experience with satellite operations. I've operated a spacecraft in orbit, live, and watched the telemetry and images, live, as the satellite is deployed and retrieved by the Shuttle, and as it orbits on its own. I've seen the telemetry change as the satellite's attitude changed, and as it goes in and out of the Earth's shadow.

Now, according to you, you believe in such spacecraft; when orbiting on its own, it was just another unmanned spacecraft in low Earth orbit. So,

2a. Why exactly could this satellite exist, but not the Shuttle that deployed and retrieved it?

2b. How do you explain the telemetry I saw with my own eyes? Please do not attempt to handwave it away as faked; the mission simulations we ran on the ground, using NASA systems which we crawled all over, simply did not have the fidelity to fool us.

2c. We even managed to capture an image of the Orbiter from our own free-flying vehicle. How do you explain that? If you are saying I am lying about that, what is your evidence? If you are saying the picture was faked, what is your evidence and exactly how could it have been faked?

3. I have seen multiple Shuttle launches and landings at KSC. I've seen the Shuttle heading up the East Coast on high-inclination missions - you can see it from Maryland and Virginia. I've seen the plasma trail from Houston as it reenters the atmosphere, streaking towards KSC. How exactly, if the Shuttle is faked, do you explain all of these observations?

4. Where do you live? If you are anywhere near the D.C. area, I would be happy to show you, in person, an Iridium flare - you do believe in such satellites - and the ISS as it flies overhead, plus the Shuttle if a mission was in progress at the time.

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"Slapping a guy on the head is just as funny now as it was eighty years ago."

Well, he seems to be banned.

What is all this "Illuminati" stuff? I keep seeing some conspiracy theorists mention it, but I never could be bothered to figure it out. It seems to be some kind of global-scale ancient Maffia kind of thing.

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Spread the Love!

The typical Apollo Hoax believer wll just say those were placed there by an un-manned mission, although it does refute MM's argument of "nothing beyond Earth orbit" crapola.

The Illuminati (aka The Ancient Illuminated Seers of Bavaria) was a real secret society in the late 18th century. Here's the wikipedia article

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Carl Matherly

Offical Battlestar Galactica Apologist

Named Time Magazine's 2006 "Person of the Year"

Sort of like the Moose lodge.

Another thread by Matt. I don't want to sound mean, but to be perfectly blunt, why should we expect anything different out of him this time around? I see he's been given the "three-day think about it" period, but it's not like this is the first time we've seen cryptic and baseless claims from him here. Frankly, I was really confused, and had to spend some time looking at the old posts because I thought he had already been banned. I mean, since the Illuminati control this forum as well, I'm suprised they continue to let him spill their secrets

Well, I'll have some reading to do to catch up. Six pages worth of posts in one day? You guys sure don't take it easy on a fella when he misses a day here.

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

So, according to MM half the population of the world is involved in a conspiracy to fool the other half. And yet, somehow, no one has ever spilled the secret. Wow.

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"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
"The Mayan symbol for "book" looks a lot like a triple hamburger, but I've never seen them claiming it as proof the Mayans had Big Macs." - KaiYeves
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

Pretty much.

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Carl Matherly

Offical Battlestar Galactica Apologist

Named Time Magazine's 2006 "Person of the Year"

Don't bother. It will lower your IQ.

Eh, I always try to read through the stuff anyway, to see if I can learn anything new from the replies. I made it to the bottom of page four, but there's very little new being discussed, simply because the claims are so rediculously unfounded and easily refuted. At least when someone claims there wasn't enough lead in the shuttle to protect the crew from Van Allen's wrath, I learn something about radiation. Or when people question the heating/cooling abilities of the apollo capsule, I learn something about thermal control. But this? I learn that satelites aren't limited to LEO.

I hate when a CT isn't even creative, but is simply "This is impossible because of the conspiracy!"... Complete waste of time doesn't even begin to describe it.

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

Thanks for the compliment, it's much appreciated. I don't actually have any pictures of the shuttle yet (at least nothing recognizable - bad choice of cameras when i first started taking pictures), but if the shuttle launches on tuesday or wednesday I should be able to get a picture of it by itself wednesday night if the weather's clear (I also have an opportunity to see it docked on friday night ). This would be my first good opportunity to photograph the shuttle with the right equipment since the return to flight - all others have been clouded out or there were just no good passes available during the mission. If I'm successful I'll post the result over in the astrophotography forum.

You're right. In most threads something can be learned from the replies. It's a shame you missed Occam's post - he said what some of us want to say but don't have the huevos. I salute you Occam!

I was try'n to figure that out; I saw references to it, but didn't see the actual post. After you posted that, I went back with the specific purpose of finding said post. Was it removed?

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

Yes. But Occam was just issued a friendly reminder. He threatened to leave. I hope he returns.

I do too. He's on my list of regulars whose posts I thoroughly enjoy (though I'll admit it's not a very exclusive list). Plus I like his avatar

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

I wonder what it's like to live in a demon haunted world where government disinfo agents are literally everywhere. I mean, just think, you go to BAUT, a random, obscure internet site, and lo and behold! There is NGCHunter, a paid government disinfo agent! See? The agents are everywhere!

And I wonder how MM reconciles his scary vision of a giant, omnipresent, evil government, with the fact that he (MM) is still alive. I mean, why doesn't the government just kill you MM?? Nobody is going to notice if you're gone. Wouldn't it be cheaper to kill you off, than to let you spread your ideas with a blog and with posts to this and other forums?

So on the one hand, the government goes to great lengths to maintain the hoax. The government spends *billions* of dollars to make all kinds of fake evidence, including paying NGCHunter to hang out on a dark, obscure corner of the internet. But on the other hand, the government can't spend a few thousand dollars to make MM die of a "heart attack"

What?! And here I thought BAUT was a very bright beacon of sanity, science, and decorum.