The Majestic 12 documents are real but are they true?

Have they ever interviewed any of the members listed in the MJ12 documents? This would be a good step in its authenticity.

Actually, the documents are not "real"...or true. MJ12 was a hoax.

That would be a bit difficult since all of the "members" were deceased when the "documents" were first "discovered". If you had done a simple google search before starting this thread then you would have known that.

They're hoaxes, and badly done ones at that. See Wikipedia for a bit more in depth than I care to type out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_12

If you've ever been in/associated with the military (I have) and people with secret clearances, you'll quickly recognize the thing as a load of bollocks. The occasional real document shows up in there, married to a lot of forged material to prove ...whatever the hoaxers decide they want to prive this time.

Secret movie thing to watch for:
According to Wikipedia, in the movie Jimmy Neutron: Boy Genius, one of the cars in Retroville has the lisence place MJ12.

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I actually own a copy of the original MJ12 "documents" signed by Stan Friedman. What can I say, I was much more gullible in high school lol. It seemed reasonable to me that even if roswell was just a secret project to listen to russians, that the incident might have inspired the government to create a plan of action to cover things up properly should a real alien spacecraft ever be found. I still find the concept of an "MJ12" style "plan of action" to be plausible, but I no longer see any evidence or reason to believe one actually or actively exists.

You mean besides the Threshold plan?

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"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
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"The Mayan symbol for "book" looks a lot like a triple hamburger, but I've never seen them claiming it as proof the Mayans had Big Macs." - KaiYeves
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

Kinda sorta, but not really. I think it'd be impossible to keep anything that big a secret for very long. The best anyone could do is buy time to prepare for the worst case scenarios of shock that society might experience. I mean, hearing a radio signal from a possibly-long-dead civilization is one thing, and I don't think any effort would be made to hide that kind of discovery, but finding them already on your planet is quite another. It might be wise for the government to have a "disaster" style plan secretly in place to buy enough time to protect property and handle the consequences. However, since every expert on the subject would be advising the government that the odds of finding or recovering an alien artifact on earth is more remote than comet hitting us in our lifetime, I doubt any serious effort has really been put into it. On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that the government formed such a plan anyway, just in case. After all, that's what governments are for, creating paperwork lol.

Actually, wikipedia cites 14 "pros" for the autenticity of the documents, and just 5 "cons", what are your basis to say hoaxes?

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Because the qualitative effect of the "con" far outweighs the qualitative value of the "pro." Evidentiary evaluation is not a majority-rules exercise.

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hehe yes in debunking anything evidence always comes down to 'quality not quantity'

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IMHO: As a former Military Officer and having some experience examing documents like this while serving, not authentic. A good try by ameteurs, but no cigar...

Dale

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Keep in mind, of course, Wikipedia is "the online encyclopedia that anyone can edit". So those who mistake repetition for evidence will try to put in as many claims as they can, regardless of validity. According to their own rules, as long as you can cite it as having been said by some "authority", it can go in Wikipedia.

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"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
"The Mayan symbol for "book" looks a lot like a triple hamburger, but I've never seen them claiming it as proof the Mayans had Big Macs." - KaiYeves
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

Reminds me of one of Timothy Ferris's books where he talks about a poll that was sent to scientists, asking them about their views on many scientific theories and speculations. The last question of the poll was something like "Is this poll helpful in advancing science?" and 100 percent of the scientists replied "No".

Many of the arguments pro are actually rebuttals to previous arguments con. That is appropriate, since con has the burden of proof in a question of authenticity. However, it is inappropriate to style them as direct proof.

Many other arguments pro are also aimed at setting up a plausible background from which the MJ12 documents could have arisen. This is appropriate; even though con bears the burden of proof, pro must satisfy prima facie plausibility. Showing that there exists a plausible general context from which the item could have arisen is not proof that it did arise. Again it is improper to style it as such.

Having successfully rebutted some challenges to authenticity does not count as having made a contravening case when other challenges remain. While the proposition that MJ12 documents are hoaxed has the burden of proof, in my opinion that burden has been satisfied. The outstanding, unrebutted observations indicating forgery attain a fairly conclusive stature.

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I find it peculiar that when the FBI investigated they talked to Col. Rich Weaver at the AFOSI. He happened to be the author for the Air Forces Roswell debunking book?

What would you expect? Were they supposed to talk to Stanton Friedman about their authenticity? If they were Top Secret documents, they would ask somebody at the AF office of special investigations. They also probably talked to other individuals in various departments of the AF and DOD.

All you have to do is look at the UFO community to figure out where MJ-12 stands. Long time Roswell proponent Kevin Randle wrote a book calling them a hoax. If you can't convince somebody that believes that Roswell is about a crashed spacehip that these documents are authentic, you have to wonder. There is plenty of evidence to suggest these items are hoaxes and no evidence to indicate they are authentic.

I find it peculiar that when the FBI investigated they talked to Col. Rich Weaver at the AFOSI. He happened to be the author for the Air Forces Roswell debunking book?

This is exactly the sort of hogwash that conspiracy theories are made of. People leap over the perfectly reasonable and justifiable alternative just so they can create some unsubstantiated innuendo about the "real" reason for something.

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Are you asking us about this? Go look it up.

Good example of the old saying:

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A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

You obviously missed the 28 points listed under the 5 you counted. That puts the count at 14 pro, 34 con, if you wanted to compare that is.....

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Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

Remember that Wikipedia articles can change fast and there have been a bunch of edits between now and when Orion posted so its quite possible that the additional 28 points have appeared since then.

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I checked the page as it was on the 20th of Nov, they were there, all in the "Arguments Against" section. Orion simply counted the points up until the heading "Briefing document and Truman letter" and then ignored everything that followed even though it's still part of the "Arguments Against" section as well.

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It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

I was watching a DVD that had Bob Lazar on it and this private investigator was researching his W-2 form that he got while he was working for the United States Department of Naval Intelligence at Area 51. Anyway while researching it they hit a dead end at the IRS where the numbers were highly classified. One of them was E-***2MAJ. Think that MAJ stands for MAJESTIC 12?

The numbers were classified? What the heck does that mean?

Oh...be informed that using Lazar as a "source" will be met with laughter as he is a documented LIAR

Well RAF, it is very simple actually...the numbers were classified because if the secret got out that they form the basis of maths, that would cause widespread panic. Furthermore, the 2MAJ simply corresponds to, not the first, but the second day of May. Being written in Polish allowed the FBI to realise it was an effort of the anti-Russian underground to send a message to Washington that they needed help or rather blatantly sent out a "mayday". Translators being somewhat scarce, the opposition team had to rely on faint memories of pre-war American cinema, and thus resorted to "2MAJ" as a poor translation. Quite obvious really.

Ah, yes...the old 2 + 2 = run away, run away.

I was watching a DVD that had Bob Lazar on it and this private investigator was researching...

Would that be the private investigator who was trying to build his reputation by promoting Lazar's claims?

...he was working for the United States Department of Naval Intelligence at Area 51.

It has been fairly well determined that Lazar has not been to Area 51, despite his claims. Tax forms show only who wrote the paychecks, not where or for whom the work was ultimately done. I have had quite a few difficulties in the past working for large organizations where the employment was offered under one company name, but the payroll was handled by a subsidiary or parent entity. Banks look askance at that when vetting credit applications etc.

Clearly we must understand that he received a small amount of money from the Navy intelligence department. We cannot from that necessarily understand that he was doing anything especially extraordinary. Even the CIA needs janitors and copier repairmen, for example. Given that Lazar's claimed background otherwise is entirely non-credible, we have even more reason to suppose that a vague tax form establishes that he was privy to great state secrets.

...the IRS where the numbers were highly classified.

As opposed to "ordinarily" classified? Individuals' tax forms are routinely redacted when given to third parties. Certain ID numbers, account numbers, contract numbers, etc. are considered ordinarily sensitive information when they refer to business records. They would be redacted for privacy reasons even if Lazar had worked only for K-Mart. Employers and employees are required to share certain private information with the IRS in order to satisfy IRS's mission. However, not all information thus shared becomes suitable for public dissemination. In order to maintain the right to demand that information when needed, the IRS must agree also to help safeguard it.

Think that MAJ stands for MAJESTIC 12?

No, I don't. If Lazar's tax forms were being redacted in order to conceal work that he did for a code-named super-secret project, why would they redact one part and leave visible the part that allegedly connected him to the project? Why would a payment code or contract number include the code name? Even accountants are more imaginative than that!

No, that's clearly a case of someone trying to force-fit the evidence into a predetermined story, whether the fit makes sense or not.

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Bob Lazar has been comprehensively discredited. Even Roswell proponents (e.g. Stanton Friedman) don't believe him.

The numbers of what are highly classified? The EIN (Employer Identification Number) of the DoD is hardly classified, it obviously appears on every W-2 of every employee of the Dept. of Defense (even if Lazar worked at Groom Lake; EIN don't change because of where you work). Also, the number you refer to ("E-***2MAJ") is not a valid US EIN. All EIN are of the format 12-3456789. So that itself seriously casts doubt on the credibility of your DVD.

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Well I don't know if this will help you but in order for the future to visit the past it means time is bent just like a c shape see wiki here

It is the link to wormholes. For time start with the big curve on the right and see that it bends backwards to the right. You are still moving forwards but the physics that enables the connection is very power intensive, the wormhole.

One wrong connection, just one could permanently damage existence so SLF:JAQ SFDJS do you really think humanity that advanced that they knew about time would do something so terribly and utterly stupid.

Oh right, we are talking about humans aren't we. Yes I could believe the past would be that defensive and the future could be that stupid. So enjoy this now, the now that you have because what is done is done and what will be will be but the present is the only thing that you can know for sure, to waste it worrying about human stupidity would be a waste of a very good mind.

I am not being nasty about this but even if it was true it doesn't change the fact that not one of us knows with any certainty what tomorrow will bring, does it.

That is why I said what I did. Live your life to the best that you can, put a bit aside for whatever may be and enjoy it.

Then in fifty or more years when you look back, you can be proud of what you have achieved and celebrate the life you always wanted to be remembered for.

Lots of things are unexplained and may stay that way. How much of your time, your valuable life do you wish to devote to not enjoying who you are?

AHHHHHHH Bob Lazar, close friend of the other person with a fantastic imagination, John Lear.
Has he remebered where he hid the element 115 or was it Ununpentium or something?