What small part of this seemed to make sense was way off topic

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Right again. The point is that it is all part of the big picture. Niburu is just a part and may or may not be a brown dwarf. Indications at this point in time are that it is not a brown dwarf star which means what other possibilities are there.

Within the scope of this thread, if Nibiru is not a brown dwarf, there is no relevant discussion. It seems to me you are advocating something far different than a rogue planet or star even if an astronomical event could be one of many possibilities within your "Abaddon" type scenarios; a general sense of doom perhaps. I don't know how it can be discussed since so much of the terminology and ideology has deep religious implications.

Substitute 'change' and get rid of the term 'doom' because it just isn't helpful. What could ancient observers be trying to describe with the words and the then understanding of ages past. Could some of the details be misinterpreted during translations or given new meaning because it 'just didn't seem right'.

Veeger at the heart of the problem is the terminology. I am trying not to let it dissolve into the type of discussion that inflames and stops any chance of the logic being discussed. It is not easy.

(Enumeration mine)

Ok I edited your post to what I hope is your point(s) - but I guess I am not sure what your point really is as you seem to be speaking of many different topics at once, and referring to things which, unless I knew you and and your history on this board, I would have no idea on earth what you are talking about.

The points I have enumerated seemed unrelated.

Michael Noonan, I'm gonna go ahead and enter a PM debate with you on this one I think.

Mostly because although you have the sense to ignore the hogwash- mostly- you still seem to have fallen into the basic trap.

I have studied this particular topic in great detail due to personal fascination and, revelations indeed, what I discovered was that, like many things, the ideas about the interpretations lead to a Great Many Misconceptions.

Simply put- there is no evidence of Niburu. Now, a lack of evidence does not prove a lack of substance right?
Ok not really... because the existence of some things almost requires evidence.
In order for the Niburu tale to be true- it is a requirement for there to be evidence of it. Without evidence, even if a planet like Niburu existed- it simply is not a threat.
Simnilarly, that is the case with the current O.T. tangent which I hope to discuss with you via PM.

Hello Veeger One way is to look at each prediction in isolation and another is to see if any model construct of the universe has the sort of dynamic that might lead to descriptions of times of strange events.

The quest is to ask a better question. From the geological record there was a time of snowball earth so was the sun at the time closer on average to other stars. Is our present sun temperature related in any way to a group of stars in the 300 light year diameter chimney that we are in. Why would a path forwards and backwards be clear if direction of motion leaves only a wake.

Again from the geological record we do know that the earth does go through rapid change climate events on a remarkably regular basis. How is that possible in an unconnected reality. Gravity may well be a great large connecting force but after that the current model is utterly random.

If you could 'move' the whole galaxy would the heat trails show differently in the medium of inter galactic space. What mechanism might cause us to see distorted mirror image symmetry in star formations.

(my bold)
I am trying (or at least that is what all my school report cards read). There has to be a possibility that we are missing something. Not deliberately ignoring it but just not seeing where it or what it really is.

I do not imagine for a second that I am going to put together anything more than a rough outline of an alternate concept. For a comparison it is only just this week that scientists from around the world have 'solved' a 103 year old piece of mathematical genius. Most of us know it because the equation solved is E=mc^2.

If there is any chance that the universe is alive, connected and more dynamic than anything we have yet given it credit for then I can assure you I am not silly enough to think that I can even begin to work out the details without a most extra ordinary amount of help. Or at least hand the basic logic behind the idea to great minds that can do something with it.

Noonan, a lack of specific knowledge is not grounds for pandering to fanciful musings or filling gaps with imagination.

The choice was one of do I wish to be perceived as a lunatic or a heretic. I figured science was the lesser risk factor. So now like any good performer I shall try to leave 'em laughing as I go.

Does it have to be either/or?

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I thought about pointing that out myself.

It doesn't have to be that choice. In fact, rarely is it ever that you only have two choices.

If it seems that those are your two opinions, one might question first if they are either, and if so- what can be done about that.

I'll stand on my previous logical conclusion, that we would have seen any such brown dwarf by now. It boils down to to remain unseen, it would have to be at such a distance that to reach us in 4 years, it would be traveling at near impossible speeds, (or impossible speeds if in an obital path).

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http://worldsofothersuns.home.comcast.net/

3Mj is pretty darned big but is 12Mj the accepted lower limit for a brown dwarf?
After all, only recently was an L class discovered:
Coolest, Darkest Brown Dwarf Discovered

"There are two other verified classes of dwarfs, L and T-class dwarfs. L-class dwarfs are hotter, with temperatures from 2200 to 3600°F and T-class dwarfs are cooler than 2190°F and methane-rich. CFBDS0059 is obviously much, much cooler, but researchers believe there may be still cooler dwarfs out there, possibly condensing any water vapour in their atmospheres to form clouds, setting Y-class dwarfs far from the characteristics of its L and T-class cousins. Should they get any colder, water will freeze into ice crystals, giving them more planetary than stellar characteristics."

Again, I don't think we know enough about BDs or our outer system to say for certain, and I remain skeptical that if one is part of our system we would've discovered it by now.
If it's there, I think its proper motion would be so minimal as to appear stationary. Of course, there's a chance it could have satellites (moons,planets?) of its own as well, and if there's anything which might perturb our system, I'd guess it is one of these.


Understanding that Nibiru is not said to be approaching our planet or solar system, due 2012, negates any need, IMO, for debunking the notion. I prefer to simply tell someone, "hey, the guy who forwarded the idea never made such claims, check your sources."

But I agree, if there were a brown dwarf, no less than 12Mj, due to arrive in 2012, it'd have to be moving faster than light, and likely would've been noticed by now (although, I'm unsure what something moving FTL looks like).

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I do; it's worked well for some time.
But you're right, I should've avoided him altogether. Rodin's and PeterEldergill's remarks were silly, easily ignored, but I was pleased to see parallaxicality's which regards Sitchin's Nibiru and 2012, while at the same time feeling somewhat prodded by the "forthright to his followers" quip.
I couldn't help myself; my mistake.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

This is indeed most logical; I find it just as to point out that the person who forward the idea for Nibiru never said it was to arrive in 2012.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill