I am going to post and run, because this forum has always left a bad taste in my mouth.

Anybody who is here to expand minds, promote alternative explanations to current DOGMA (and it is EXACTLY THAT, make no mistake at all), etc. is wasting there time utterly and completely.

This is where human ingenuity, creativity and the TRUE scientific method all go to die and rot. It is a crypt, and its smug tone spells doom for science, and for humanity.

Delete and ban!

See my post right above yours.

Your trouble- is that you are opinionated but don't know what you are talking about.

Then you accuse those that do know- of being smug and following Dogma.

Nonsense.

Dirty Harry said, "I hate a man that don't know his own limitations."

You want to believe JamesMathews, and you are not going to let a little thing like reality stand in your way.
Well... That's fine. your choice...
But you can keep the insults to yourself.

Why should there be a delete or a ban for posting this?

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'The eye can only see what the mind is prepared to accept'

Anybody who is here to expand minds, promote alternative explanations to current DOGMA[...] is wasting there time utterly and completely.

The expansion of mind must accompany the expansion of understanding in order to be useful. Imagination alone doesn't get you there. To expand understanding is a brutal, unforgiving process that asks hard questions. It's the intellectual equivalent of yanking hard on the rope one is about to climb, before trusting one's weight to it. Pseudoscience wants to stop at imagination and forego the test. In this thread's context, UFO enthusiasts want you simply to revel in the "possibility" that there is extraterrestrial life, as an explanation for unexplained experiences. They don't seem to want anyone to yank on that rope to see if it's attached to anyhing factual.

Alternative explanations are fine, so long as they continue also to predict what has been predicted before by earlier theories. Too often alternative explanations are not expansive at all, but rather narrowly aimed at one particular desired outcome. Useful theories are those that predict from a wider set of initial conditions, not merely chart a one-time course to the desired conclusion in the interesting case.

And too often the sine qua non of the alternative theory is the alternativeness of it: it is set up specifically to oppose the mainstream by any means and according to any line of reasoning that presents itself. The seekers of the paranormal seem to have an irrational fear of their occurrences and observations ceasing to be "para" and becoming "normal." When undirected opposition to some nemesis idea is the order of the day, understanding will not be the result.

This is where human ingenuity, creativity and the TRUE scientific method all go to die and rot.

Then please describe "true" science to us in detail. Many well-reasoned and useful books have been written over the centuries about wherein mainstream science has been successfully and usefully performed. If you can supplant that with a better-reasoned and more correct method, please do so.

Delete and ban!

Sorry, you probably won't get the coveted "I was banned at Bad Astronomy" badge so easily.

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"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

"We don't appear to have been visited by aliens," Hawking said, adding that he discounts reports of UFOs. "Why would they only appear to cranks and weirdoes?"

Having read the full article - i am puzzled as to why this would be described as 'shameful & painful'

He's advocating that we explore and colonise our own universe. 'noble and inspiring' would be a better description.

I mean given our current level of knowledge, the idea of space aliens popping by is really far-fetched, the contraints of space travel are such that it would require a huge investment of resources and a sizeable population to travel between solar systems - it would take a great many years to complete such a journey - and this alien culture would have to be intelligent. So why would the abduct some random (and usually lonesome) individual - only to stick their fingers up their bottom - and throw 'em back. Cosmic Fishermen?

You may argue that there is some mystical and advanced knowledge that they possess that allows FTL travel, i would ask - where is the evidence?

To go from UFO (unknown) to declaring the aliens are here is a huge leap of faith, based on contradictory and flimsy evidence.

I recall the early days - when these Aliens were supposed to have originated from Mars/Venus/Saturn - then the probes were sent out, we looked, they were not there, and suddenly they no longer come from within our universe, but from without..

The story always changes and the goalposts move, the Aliens theory always seems to inhabit the gaps in scientific knowledge and relies on human credulity.

Honestly - i do believe there is other intelligent life out there somewhere - the universe is simply too great in size for that not to be the case, but it may well reside in another galaxy. As for alien life (non-intelligent) i beleive thats a lot more common, and we may discover proof of that within our own solar system and (i hope) within my own lifetime.

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The most important mental attribute anyone can have is the ability to recognize when one's own comprehension of a topic is insufficient. Without that, one's knowledge simply becomes tautological: it is "impossible" for there to exist wisdom one does not already possess. - JayUtah

There is no light in space. - Moon Man

Translation: I want my opinions to be heard but I don't care what anyone else says.

Yeah yeah, burn the heretic at the stake, look how they treated Galileo, yadda yadda yadda.

I don't see smugness, I see the fruits of hard study.

This would indeed happen if there was any dogma in BAUT.

PB--well said old chap---(JB's English twist from Minnesota . . .)

So no debate or any attempts at expanding perhaps your own point of view...hmm okay

Hardly merely all anyone every asks here is to present facts to back up you alternative theories. A healthy debate is always welcome. However what you just said was an accusation based on opinion. Not a fact, and it is an opinion unsupported and one I do not agree with.

Once more opinion, and to be honest I have learned a great deal from my tie spend reading these threads and listening to those who may know more than I or who offer facts I have not yet discovered. Its vibriant and alive and for me more like a botanical garden rather than a crypt.

One of the things that is awesome here, is rarely do they delete. Your words will remain as you posted them for all to see. I also doubt that such a statement will yield a ban.

By the way, I loved Hawking's statements from the original post and found it to be anything but painful or shameful.

It was everything I've ever expected from the man.

*Strolls back off to wander through the garden*

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Mission Control : "Please don't kick the robot Bill. "

I like that! And I agree - I think that is what has been achieved here.

A couple of Feynman-quotes I thought were relevant.

"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."

"Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool."

- Richard Feynman

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An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.

I must agree with the post that began this thread from the standpoint that attacking those who disagree with your opinion is a logical fallacy of the ad hominem abusive type. So, when Steven Hawking asks the rhetorical question why UFOs only appear to "cranks and weirdoes" (sic), he dismisses the existence of UFOs without addressing the evidence that supports it.

It seems that those in this forum, and indeed many seemingly intelligent people, are uncomfortable with those whose observations or knowledge fail to fit the officially accepted theory of things regardless of the evidence. If readers of this forum truly believe that only cranks and weirdos have witnessed UFO activity, they must believe that many air force pilots, air traffic controllers, commercial pilots, NASA astronauts and ground control employees are wackos. (Reference UFO: The Greatest Story Ever Denied)

One easy way to discredit a theory is to label it a "conspiracy theory." But let's look at the definition of that term from the Conspiracy theory entry in Wikipedia,

A conspiracy theory is a hypothesis that alleges a coordinated group are and/or were secretly working together to commit illegal or wrongful actions including hiding the existence of the group and its activities.

The unspoken statement made when labeling a position a "conspiracy theory" is that it is ridiculous and, therefore, could not possibly be true. But do you realize that over two million United States government employees and contractors hold a secret clearance? That's a lot of people secretly working together doing stuff that you know nothing about. Since you cannot know what they are doing and probably don't know who most of them are, what makes you think that there isn't one or multiple conspiracies?

Fortunately for those who plan conspiracies, people typically do not or cannot believe in them - they're too unbelievable! Hitler's conspiracy against the Jews comes to mind. Who of the non-Jewish Germans in the late 1930's actually believed that their leaders were actively wiping out millions of innocent Jews?

Anyway, forgive me for being way off topic at this point. I'm sure there is some other area for posting this kind of material and I'll be duly reprimanded.

Feynman seems to have a lot of really good quotes.

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http://amssolarempire.blogspot.com

My favorite:

"I think that it is much more likely that the reports of flying saucers are the result of the known irrational characteristics of terrestrial intelligence rather than the unknown rational efforts of extraterrestrial intelligence."

Although I do like Halcyon's quote:

"Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool."

Most UFO proponents should remember that one.

If you'd read this thread you would know that he dismisses the "cranks and weirdos", not the existence of the UFO phenomenon.
And why should he redo all the work done by others?
All the 'evidence that supports it' already has been shown to support no other conclusion then that sometimes people see stuff they can't explain.
Duh.

If you'd read this thread you would know we weren't talking about 'UFO activity' but alien encounters.

And there is no such thing as 'the officially accepted theory'.
Rational people base there conclusions on evidence.
No evidence, no conclusions. It's called keeping an open mind.
It is the evidence that is extremely problematic with the whole UFO phenomenon.
Lights in the sky are just lights in the sky.
And the stories of alien encounters strike me as no different then the accounts of encounters with hobgoblins and leprechauns from antiquity.
Without any tangible evidence what would make them anymore believable?
(In my experience a lot off people of all walks of life are wackos. But that is anecdotal. And the plural of anecdote is not data.)

We are all aware that such things as conspiracies exist.
From the assassination of Julius Caesar, to the Watergate break-in.
We are are also aware that in the real world conspiracy don't stay secret very long.
It's human nature to talk.
(How do three men keep a secret...)

Why would they believe a thing that wasn't happening.
The industrialised genocide perpetrated by the Nazis started in earnest in 1941, under the cloak of war.
And they did not manage to keep it secret. People knew.

Well, read the FAQ, and the Rules. Then you'll know for sure.

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An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.

I don't think anybody in this forum ever stated that only cranks and weirdos witnessed UFOs before. However, I do believe the general consensus is that no witness, no matter how sincere and no matter what the qualifications, is infallible in their powers of perception/observation. Dragging out pilots, astronauts, air traffic controllers, etc. and using them as proof or evidence that UFOs are something truly exotic is inadequate. Humans make mistakes (ever hear of pilot error?) and that is what is at issue with the UFO phenomena.

BTW, I hate people who post a link for a 1.5 hour long video I am not interested in wasting my time watching. I have seen a lot of these interviews/clips before and don't need a lot of wierd music and some control voice telling me what to think. Feel free to give us details you think are important in the video and then we can discuss it.

Yes they do. And not only people who disagree with you.

Instead of reading the entire thread, I read Stephen Hawking's quote:
"We don’t appear to have been visited by aliens. I am discounting reports of UFOs. Why would they appear only to cranks and weirdos?"

Hawking did