I have been interested in this whole Nibiru (The Destroyer) topic for quite some time now. Whatever it may be, a brown dwarf, a large planet, an unidentified body that may be invading our solar system etc. I have been reading all sorts of posts, whether they are doom sayers setting our day to die or skeptics saying its all a load of crap. I've read alot of them and kept an open mind. This inspired me to seek information and try to come to a conclusion to this. The easy way to think is that its all just a load of crap. Sure anyone with a telescope would surely be able to spot such a large object in the sky right? Well what if it is a brown dwarf that is almost hidden in a fog of dust coming from behind the sun? Would such an object still be seen so easily? You would have to think it would be rather difficult to detect. It would most likely disturb other planets in our solar system, but when? How close would it have to be to cause a noticeable disruption? If a large object like this were to make a near approach it could very easily cause a pole shift. So I looked up previous events in the earths history that could suggest a pole shift occurred. I found this http://www.crystalinks.com/crustal.html . This suggests that approx 12,000 years ago mastodons that were living in tropical regions were suddenly frozen in what is now near Siberia. I found that to be rather interesting. The fact that they had tropical flowers in their stomach proves where they lived. Also as we all know, the new South Pole telescope. Are they really using that to observe our ever expanding universe, and how it is speeding up? What about this new doomsday vault built near Norway? http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe...eds/index.html
This is supposed to house almost every species of seed known to exist. This was just recently completed. So now the question, would this be a favorable location if there was going to be a pole shift? I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything. I just read alot of posts where people want proof of something and it was these things that really struck my attention and made me wonder. I'm not a die hard believer but I am definitely curious. I do honestly believe that if such a catastrophic event occurred that our government would withhold this information for obvious reasons. Mass hysteria would set in, people would quit their jobs, money would become useless. The only things that would become of any value would be radiation suits, food and a safe hideaway away from the coasts.

How dense would the fog have to be to hide an object that big, and what evidence is there that any such fog exists? A brown dwarf is roughly the size of Jupiter, and I can see Jupiter even when it only a few degrees from the Sun. It is only hidden when it passes so close it is lost in the glare or actually beind the Sun itself. The same is true of other planets, which can be seen quite close to the Sun by observers on the ground and by such as the SOHO satellite. The path this object would have to follow to remain hidden behind the Sun as we zip round it defies physics.

Why?

Neptune, a planet considerably smaller than Jupiter or any brown dwarf, caused a disruption in Uranus's orbit that was detected in the 1800s using nothing more than visual observations and some pencil and paper calculations, and Neptune is about 1.5 billion kilometres away from Uranus at its closest approach. It was much further away than that when astronomers realised it was pulling Uranus off its predicted orbit. Shove a Jupiter-sized object into the system and someone really is going to notice when their GOTO telescopes stop working properly.

Could it? By what mechanism would a passing mass affect the internal dynamo of the Earth's mantle and core such as to effect a complete reversal of the magnetic field?

What evidence do you have that they are not? What is so special about the South Pole as an observing location and the South Pole Telescope as an optical instrument that gives it a privileged view of our near neighbours compared to, say, an observer in Australia or South America?

I might also mention that the few examples I have seen of people claiming that images of Nibiru were taken by the South Pole Telescope use images clearly dated as having been captured in January. No mean feat, since January is 24 hours of sunlight at the South Pole....

What location would not be favourable in the event of a pole shift compared to other catastrophes that might befall us?

And what of the other governments throughout the world? How do you stop amateur astronomers seeing Nibiru if it is there? How do you make sure that all the professionals keep quiet? How far away would Nibiru become a naked eye object that could not be hidden by any government ever?

Whereas keeping everyone carrying on with their lives as if nothing is coming is a very sound way to deal with the crisis?

A large planetary object passing through the inner solar system is simply not something that can be kept secret. Go outside on a clear night and look at what you can actually see with your unaided eyes. You can see all the way out to Saturn easily. With a half-decent pair of binoculars you can see the Moons of Jupiter. A half decent telescope can show you Pluto if you know where you are looking. How could you hide a massive object like a brown dwarf?

__________________
"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.

was going to reply, but jason beat me to it.

Gravitational Perturbations would have been detected by now
The Gov'ts of the world don't have control of all the telescopes, calculators, pencils or paper, so they can't exactly cover somethign like this up.

__________________
The More I learn, The More Ignorant I Become

Eagle Eye Observatory

The entire Nibiru-Planet-X-what-have-you story is based on the notion of something expected to have tremendous effect, yet so far provides no noticeable effect. It is thus veiled in an enormous web of conjecture and hogwash intended to assert that something big and bad is there, while excusing a pristine lack of evidence for any such thing.

One must look hard to find anything more vaporous than that.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Planet X isn't coming!

__________________
Olsen the moderator.

Hi, $pacemonkey. Welcome to the board.

The easy way to think is that its all just a load of crap.

It's even easier just to believe it without paying attention to the facts.

Sure anyone with a telescope would surely be able to spot such a large object in the sky right? Well what if it is a brown dwarf that is almost hidden in a fog of dust coming from behind the sun?

Nothing can stay hidden behind the Sun, because we keep moving around it.

Would such an object still be seen so easily?

A huge dust cloud would make it even easier to see. It would reflect light from the Sun, glow in the infrared, and obscure stars behind it.

You would have to think it would be rather difficult to detect. It would most likely disturb other planets in our solar system, but when? How close would it have to be to cause a noticeable disruption?

If it was large enough to be a problem, and close enough to get here by 2012, it would already be causing significant disruptions.

If a large object like this were to make a near approach it could very easily cause a pole shift.

Why, exactly? What sort of torque could such a body put on the Earth, and how? Hint: gravity won't do it. Magnetism is too weak.

So I looked up previous events in the earths history that could suggest a pole shift occurred. I found this http://www.crystalinks.com/crustal.html . This suggests that approx 12,000 years ago mastodons that were living in tropical regions were suddenly frozen in what is now near Siberia. I found that to be rather interesting.

Except that the myth that mastodons were suddenly frozen is just that - a myth. Moreover, such a sudden and spectacular shift would not have flash frozen anything anyway, but it would have pretty much destroyed everything on the surface of the Earth.

Also as we all know, the new South Pole telescope.

What about it? Why is it more significant than any other Southern Hemisphere telescope?

Are they really using that to observe our ever expanding universe, and how it is speeding up?

Yes. Which has nothing whatsoever to do with "Nibiru".

What about this new doomsday vault built near Norway? http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe...eds/index.html
This is supposed to house almost every species of seed known to exist. This was just recently completed.

So? I'm not just being disputatious. I'm pointing out that its existence - it's one of several - is no evidence for "Nibiru".

So now the question, would this be a favorable location if there was going to be a pole shift?

No location on the face of the Earth would be favorable; the sort of "pole shift" the Nibiru proponents like to talk about it would likely release enough energy to melt the Earth's crust.

I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything. I just read alot of posts where people want proof of something and it was these things that really struck my attention and made me wonder. I'm not a die hard believer but I am definitely curious.

I'm just trying to identify some of the nonsense behind the "Nibiru" claims, as well as the non sequitirs which are frequently brought up as "evidence". Hope this helps.

I do honestly believe that if such a catastrophic event occurred that our government would withhold this information for obvious reasons. Mass hysteria would set in, people would quit their jobs, money would become useless.

Which would happen anyway when the thing inevitably was spotted by amateur astronomers long before it came by. Even if "the government" wanted to keep it a secret, there's no chance they could do so for long.

Which reminds me of Dave Barry's observation, "Every time the government tries to do anything secretly, as in the Iran-contra arms deal, it winds up displaying all the finesse and stealth of an exploding cigar at a state funeral."

The only things that would become of any value would be radiation suits, food and a safe hideaway away from the coasts.

The scenario proposed by "Nibiru" enthusiasts would render all such things useless. But relax. "Nibiru" is not coming to get us.

__________________
"Slapping a guy on the head is just as funny now as it was eighty years ago."

Oh yes it is! It's due to devastate the Earth in 2003!

__________________
Nothing beautiful was ever made from gravel.

This has kind of been touched on already, but I take it you are aware that BAUT members are not all ruled by the same government?

Non-US people (such as myself) often get the feeling that a significant number of US people think "America" is another word for "Earth". I don't know if you are from the US, but if you are, try not to be one of those people.

__________________
Nothing beautiful was ever made from gravel.

There's more about the "flash frozen mammoths" claim here.

Simply put, it's what horses make out of oats.

__________________
Please enjoy your trip through this door.

I'm a bit confused as to how a gigantic huge thing could shift poles but not completely disrupt our orbit to the point where we could boil eggs on our own faces.

__________________
---"Why do things have to suck so bad?" a friend once asked me.
"Because space is a vacuum and that's a lot of suck." I replied.
(Actual quote)---

I may be tilting at seagulls, too...but what the heck.

This suggests that approx 12,000 years ago mastodons that were living in tropical regions were suddenly frozen in what is now near Siberia. I found that to be rather interesting. The fact that they had tropical flowers in their stomach proves where they lived.

Tropical? You're off by a climate zone. I'd be willing to bet a modest sum that you're referring to the buttercups found with the Beresovka mammoth...or some similar case. Those flowers are not classified as tropical plants. They generally favor cool, temperate environments. Distribution of some species is huge, ranging well into arctic areas such as Greenland and northern Alaska, where I live.

__________________
Brett
Peters Creek, Alaska
─────────────────────────────────────────────
My moderation comments will appear in this color.
To report a post (even this one) to the moderation team, click the reporting icon in the upper-right corner of the post:
─────────────────────────────────────────────
◄ Rules For Posting To This Board ► ◄ Forum FAQs ► ◄ Conspiracy Theory Advice ► ◄ Alternate Theory Advice ►

Do you have a source for that?
I need to find out how to prepare for it, and if they have a more precise date so I can plan.


Oh; never mind... I googled it.

Quote:

Six to eight weeks prior to the passing of Planet X, all will be able to see it in the sky as sort of a red cross with their naked eyes.

Except in the mideast where it will be a red crescent?

It must be somebody preserving the page for posterity.

__________________
Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

I'm guessing the only one that needs to sweat this is John Titor

__________________
The More I learn, The More Ignorant I Become

Eagle Eye Observatory

Another "great wall of text" from a person with 0 posts....hmmmm

Pete

__________________
PJE

There's so much I don't know about astrophysics. I wish I had read that book by that wheelchair guy.

Exactly. It's easier (not easy, just easier) to perturb or significantly alter our orbit than it is to cause this big shift in Earth's poles by any sort of gravitational or magnetic interaction.

The real giggle is that people think that Earth is suddenly going to be laid over on its side, but that canned food and warm clothing is going to help them survive it...

ETA: Welcome to the board, LotusExcelle!

Attached Thumbnails

 

__________________
"Slapping a guy on the head is just as funny now as it was eighty years ago."

Nono the canned food and warm clothing is just a luxury. What will save us is a towel.

__________________
---"Why do things have to suck so bad?" a friend once asked me.
"Because space is a vacuum and that's a lot of suck." I replied.
(Actual quote)---

The secret is to store the cans on thier sides, so they end up right-side-up after it happens.

__________________
Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

I believe I heard that zero posts was a counting bug when the first post(s) of a new member get held for moderator approval because of links.

__________________
0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 ...

Just to add to that, a brown dwarf, in a dust cloud or not, that close to us, would be a very bright object in the infrared. Any of the large IR telescopes would have seen it long ago.

__________________
At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

Nibiru is bad astronomy based on worse archeology.

__________________
I want to go back to the moon.
I don't care which rocket you use, whichever one you pick, I'll like it, I swear.
"If you think the LHC will create black holes, you might as well believe Hobbits are at the bottom of your garden."- Dr. Mike Inglis
Rovers forever! - ToSeek

Hi $pacemonkey (optimistically presuming you're still around): I usually don't debunk claims around here¹ After all, there are far, far better proponents of that art on hand).

But let me try it this once:

Why do we have to prove to you that "Nibiru"² is not coming? Surely you have to prove to us that it is coming? Burden of proof, and all that. With that reversed, you could have us all running in circles trying to disprove your conviction that Earth is about to be invaded by invisible space-bunnies that want to farm humans for our belly-buttons, which are considered a delicacy on their planet.

So, why do you believe that it's a threat? Because some stranger on the 'net said so? You'll have to do better than that, old chap!

Anyway, you're barking up the wrong tree. It's not a rogue planet/brown dwarf/donut. It's actually a giant crouton, that wants to dip itself in the moon's cheese.

---

¹⁾Instead, I just insult the egregiously annoying ones, but subtly enough not to get myself banned - the irony of being banned while the woo gets to post freely, would be very painful.

²⁾"Nibiru" is actually a word in the ancient Maya language, meaning (roughly translated) "April Fool's Joke That Went Too Far". Very succinct language, Ancient Mayanese.

Ahh..makes sense now

Pete

__________________
PJE

There's so much I don't know about astrophysics. I wish I had read that book by that wheelchair guy.

sighs

is nancy already so forgotten.......

(is this a good thing or a bad thing tho....)

mark was once one of nancy's most vocal supporters

(nancy being of course the infamous zetatalk 2003 poleshifter's)

she is still around (every sat night at godlike if you are willing to see the same old same old trotted out)

half a decade later nancy- (as one of the godlike crew have as their sigs)

`debunkers 100% accuracy rate, bunkers 0%' or words to that effect....

;-)


(edit to ad link to zetatalk - http://www.zetatalk.com/)
and search the early 2003 b.a threads ( may in particular) for quite a few nancy threads...
good for a giggle or thirty...

;-)

__________________
No, I'm being ordinarily sarcastic. Don't make me get very sarcastic. You wouldn't like me when I'm very sarcastic. - JayUtah



Surely if you are going to start a conspiracy theory it is best to start with something that might have a grain of truth or reality in it. To start with the preposterous and go downhill from there is just stupid. steve(primus) (Avatar)

Next time Haleys comet comes around all the doomsayers will think it's Nibiru.

Oh my, I followed a link and fell into a hole full of very strange stuff indeed...my brain hurts.
Gotta go find a concrete igloo kit....

If an object the size of a brown dwarf passed through the solar system with any regularity (even once in a million years) the orbits of all the planets would be highly eccentric/elliptical. Since our solar system happens to have one of the most stable configurations possible, worrying about such an object is ridiculous.

If you look at data on extrasolar planets their orbits tend to be very elliptical.

The energy required to flip the earth's axis is incredible. There is absolutely NO evidence this has happened - ever. True Polar Wander, another unrelated theory is often confused by pole shift advocates.

Mastodons lived in the sub-siberian region and even farther north prior to the last glacial maximum (LGM) when conditions on the planet were generally warmer than they are today. Many carcasses found today actually predate the LGM. Further, like todays modern elephants, the stomach contents of mastodons digest very slowly. There is no need to hypothesize flash freezing to explain the material found in mastodon abdomens. If the mastodons were flash frozen, their carcasses would be well preserved, but this also is not the case. Inspite of some who claim edible mastodon flesh has been found, it is not true. The flesh is found to be in advanced stages of decay.

The idea of the rogue planet (or brown dwarf now) Nibiru in a highly elliptical orbit is based on a poorly researched work by Zachariah Sitchin which has been completed refuted. http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/

Hi Veeger.

I'm curious, have you read Sitchin's "Earth Chronicles" series, particularly book 1, The 12th Planet?
Have you checked his sources for accuracy, compared and contrasted with the scholars he cites as well as with Heiser's refutations?
I have, and at length. Here at BAUT I've provided counter arguments to Heiser's main points against Sitchin. Feel free to search them.

Now, I don't think Sitchin (it's Zecharia btw) is 100% accurate with his thesis, but neither can I accept it being "completed refuted" (sic) based on Heiser's, nor that the latter's subsumes the former.
Heiser states, "The reader should also know that I believe that the strange phenomena people have experienced in antiquity through the present day with respect to "UFOs" and "aliens" are real. The Facade offers an alternative paradigm to these phenomena, one that, contrary to Mr. Sitchin's reconstruction, CAN be defended (if the connections be legitimate) through ancient texts."
So he is doing largely what Sitchin has been, suggesting ancient "astronauts"(of sorts) are real and have been involved in the affairs of humankind. The big difference however lies in Heiser's "Divine Council," comprised of God, the Son, and other "sons of god;" metaphysical beings lesser to God and the Son but a higher "species", as he says, to humans.
His discussions of Nephilim and Elohim are quite curious in that in the former he claims every other OT scholar's discussions and interpretations are wrong, and in the latter he confirms Sitchin's claim that elohim is plural when in context (eg. "let us make man in our image, after our likeness." "The man has now become as like one of us, knowing good and evil." " Come let us go down and confuse their language...").
Moreover, Heiser's discussion of Nibiru reinforces, rather than refutes, it being an astronomical body, variously translated as "star" or "planet", and stationed or orbiting at some "crossing" point in the heavens. While he admits scholars remain unclear as to the astronomical identity of Nibiru, he points out the primary astronomical text in which the term is found, the MUL.APIN or "The Plough Star" text (curious title btw ).

Again, I don't think Sitchin is 100% accurate but to me, physically present material beings as ancient astronauts is more plausible than a species of interdimensional metaphysical beings as "those from the heavens."
Further, Heiser reinforces the notion of THE one God of the Hebrews and the "Son." Being a Hebrew scholar I suspect this is necessary so as not to damage his academic credentials while riding the "ufos are aliens" circuit and collaborating with scientists like RC Hoagland, whose hyperdimensional physics fits nicely with his interdimensional "divine council."

No, at best, and in my opinion, Heiser's site should be ...maybesitchiniswrongbutGodandaliensarereal (dot) com.
As it is, I wouldn't cite it as a complete refutation without close analysis of, first and foremost, Sitchin's work, but also of Heiser's and other scholars'.

I do however find it helpful that you provided the link as it points directly to the originator of Marduk/Nibiru as celestial perturber body in our solar system idea. Hopefully the inquisitive will explore the source material directly rather than rely on excerpts, mistranslations, and flimsy refutations found on the web.

And there's the rub: even the source material is subject to misinterpretation and mistranslation. Of course there will be conflicting opinions, even amongst the "proper" scholars as exemplified by Heiser himself.

For me it comes down to whether or not there exists a perturber body in our solar system. If one does, I'll remain skeptical as it will have to be shown to approach the asteroid belt from beneath the ecliptic in order to be Sitchin's Nibiru or "planet of crossing."
If such a body is found to exist, I suspect it will be an orbiting body of a brown dwarf binary companion to our sun; hence the oft confusing references to "star" or "planet" and the Marduk / Nibiru dualities.

__________________
"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

This is tired stuff. If there is a Brown Dwarf companion to the Sun where is it?

ALso what is the Conspiracy in this thread?

__________________
All Moderation in Purple
To report a post (even this one) to the moderation team, click the reporting icon in the upper-right corner of the post:
─────────────────────────────────────────────
◄Rules For Posting To This Board ► ◄Forum FAQs ► ◄ Conspiracy Theory Advice ► ◄ Alternate Theory Advice ►

I'm not sure what the conspiracy is as intended by the OP, but I don't find perturber hypotheses to be "tired stuff" when recent discoveries, and models, suggest something sizable in the outer system, or at least perturbing it.

Where is it?
Great question.

I've seen the direction of Sagittarius suggested as a place to look but then again, even it were in this direction its proper motion would be so minimal as to appear stationary.

__________________
"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill