Thanks Daffy


Please refrain from insults.

I know you were Nev.

Sometimes it is really easy to see how superstitions and beliefs arise. Picture such an occurrence in the middle ages, and imagine the howls of "possessed by demons"

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

I did. I wasn't Insulting- I was harsh. there's a difference.

You can thank Daffy for flattering your claims. But you can go ahead and hate my guts.
'Cuz I deal in reality and don't pander to fantasy. That won't be what you WANT to hear- You want to hear what Daffy said.

Too bad.

I just looked out my bedroom window and saw invisible gnomes battling a dragon. Bigfoot jumped into the brawl and stomped on the gnomes.

I'd like to tell everyone about it- But like in the Movies- I'm afraid that those mean old poopy heads won't believe me and instead will try to encourage things like- Rational thinking. Critical Thinking. Observation of Reality. And all the other things I don't want.

Often wonder what claims would be if, say, science fiction had never been discovered. Bit of a premiss I know.

I am curious why you consider these insults?

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

Actually in all fairness- I was awfully harsh.

Going over my posts I feel a bit guilty.

But all the same- I just can't pander to peoples 'feelings' all the time either. You either get your reality check or you don't.

Thanks for illustrating the problem so perfectly.

Rational thinking goes both ways, Neverfly. This post of yours is about as far from rational thinking as Richard Hoagland, just in the opposite direction.

(Edited to add)
Just saw your apology...but I am letting this post stand, because it really does illustrate the problem. If someone does see something they can't explain, but is still willing to look at it rationally, they are going to be terribly reluctant to bring it up for fear of generating childish, schoolyard taunts.

Makes me wonder if there is some serious evidence out there, but people are simply afraid to bring it up. And they should be afraid.

Not at all.
Making claims about Alien Visitors is No More Plausible than all the claims we hear about Hollow Earth people, Angels, Ghosts, Gnomes, Dragons, Fairies and the like.

In the end- people making the claims are prone to Wanting To Believe.
They attribute ANYTHING that they think might support their case to that cause.
When a UFOlogist sees something in the sky, they see Aliens.
When a spiritual person sees something in the sky, they see spirits.

So on and so on.

Apologies or not- My posts stand as well.
The problem is a lack of critical thinking on the part of the "reluctant to bring it up person".
If they see something they can't explain, but try to claim that something must be whatever it is they want to reinforce a belief- then they deserve whatever treatment they get until they learn how to BE Rational.

Rational investigation of an aerial phenomenon is not an Alien Visitor investigation.
It's an aerial phenomenon investigation.
But until there is sufficient evidence to reasonably and rationally support that aliens are zooming about our skies, there is no reason to entertain that notion when there are much more likely causes. Common Causes. Common causes that lead people to be VERY Imaginative.

Either explain how my experience falls under your description, or accept that you are unfairly branding people.

The problem is that if someone does see something---and is willing to look at it from all angles---you are still going to brand them a kook even if you have no evidence yourself. That is not skeptical thinking; it is doing the exact same thing "woo woos" do, only in the opposite direction.

A true skeptic challenges not only other people's views---but more importantly, his or her own.

I have made no claims about aliens, have specifically said I have no evidence for such and that I consider it very unlikely. And yet I am still lumped in with all the rest in your view. That is wrong.

I have No idea what your experience was.
And you're right- but also wrong.
I'm not willing to look at it from "all angles."
I'm willing to look at it with rational and critical thinking.

That means that I will accept the EVIDENCE.

If the EVIDENCE demonstrates that aliens visited us- I would accept that.

But there is None So Far.

If someone goes off spewing about how the flock of birds they saw was an alien craft- Yeah, I WILL call them a kook and I'll be right.
So I'm not calling people kooks without evidence. You just made that up.

It's not doing the exact same thing Woo Woos do but in the opposite direction.
It's examining the plausibility.

If I saw Madonna on a Grilled Cheese Sandwich- the EVIDENCE demonstrates it's pareidolia.
But the Believer doesn't care about the Evidence. If you tell them it's pareidolia, they will get mad and make the same accusations you just did.
So why is that rational- but when it's UFO's- Suddenly it's NOT?

Because you're a UFO believer, perhaps?

Are you able to post without throwing insults? Do you think such insults make your point better? They don't.

A UFO believer? Well yes. How can one not be? There is something in the skies that hasn't been identified. That's not opinion, that's fact. Belief has nothing to do with it.

Do I think it is alien visitation? I have no evidence for it, so at this time, no, I don't. Do I think the probability is zero? No. Just very, very unlikely. I wonder how many times I have to say that before you start to get it?

Please provide your evidence that every single person who has seen a UFO is some sort of kook. Because to me, you are starting with that presumption, and rejecting ALL evidence that contradicts it. Something a Creationist would admire.

Whatever.
If I ask what the insults were, you will probably try to claim it's "kook" right?


Whatever.
You're putting words in my mouth. Right after you got after someone else for that a while ago.
"Please provide your evidence that every single person who has seen a UFO is some sort of kook." <<< I never claimed any such thing.
Retract it or drop it.
If you have no intention of doing either one- then don't bother replying.

If so, I apologize.

Your words: No qualifiers that I can see. But, again, if I misunderstood, I apologize. So you do accept that rational people have seen UFOs?

(Edited to add)
My last word until tonight. I am off to work.

I am baffled by this thread. I saw nobody claiming to have seen an alien spaceship, neither Daffy nor SagoSans.

I find it perfectly legitimate to relate sightings which one can not recognize, something "unidentified". This does not imply they are claiming aliens. Just stating a fact. In fact, why should one not be able to calmly relate such experiences and have an interchange of ideas?

No reason to overreact and stir up the pot Neverfly.

I guess we could have done without my earlier comments here. I am really one of the last people on the planet that should be mocking what someone else has seen. It wasn't personal. It is the same old story. If you see something unusual like what was described early on, unless you have a piece of it or an alien on a leash you might as well be silent. It will never go anywhere. That is primarily why I threw out the "alien craft" and "alien birds" comments. Laughingly out of frustration. I keep a very simple theory close at hand, "sometimes what you see IS exactly what it appears to be". That one keeps me reasonalbly sane. It would be nice if we could believe everyone, perceptions and all, but it just is not the way of the world. We do need people like NF on the skeptical end of the scale to keep everyone on their toes. I came here a year ago primarily to hear other people's experiences and to see how those experiences are treated in a skeptical environment. It also leaves me in the company of people who have had unusual experiences. I am not easily discouraged and couldn't care less about someone critical of me. I enjoy the interaction but would never share my experience here as a claim. It would go nowhere nor should it for that fact. I have no evidence . . .

You say you have seen tons of them and haven't had a psychological disturbance yet?
Well, I'm not a psychiatrist but . . .

My issues stem from real life phenomena, not imagined ones

Yes yes, of course Mr. Neverfly, I understand completely. Do you find the couch comfortable enough, we have a lot to cover here this session . . .

I believe what you describe is commonly called the "waterfall illusion". When looking for a few minutes at a waterfall, where every object travels downwards over the retina (well, upwards because of the inversion, but anyway) your eyes/brain parts linked to it are used to the transition time of objects on the retina, and accept it as stationary. When you look at stationary objects afterwards, the lack of motion accross the retina is interpreted as an upwards motion of the stationary objects. So when looking at a waterfall for a few minutes and then at the tree next to it, the tree appears to be going up. The same can happen when driving for a long time: when you stop, the horizon appears to move away from you (IIRC, possibly I've got my directions mixed up ).

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

hey guys. Just to add my 2 cence. I have seen a UFO in the sky together with my two siblings and my mother. I have had about 2 years experience of astronomy on a very basic level but I have seen a couple of strange effects in that time. What I saw was a basic flying saucer disk. It was about 200 feet away flying east at a low level. I remember it as it was daytime and I was showing my family my new telescope I had just got!! Anyway I was quite surprised that I actually saw one but at the same time happy as I had always thought them to be real. Not that I'm saying a green mans inside at the helm!! Anyway I don't think you can confuse a steel looking saucer with much else in this world. My mind was in no doubt and with 3 others to see it I was pretty sure it was not my mind playing tricks. Anyway just to say I think they do exist and that you cant always explain them away with explanations like "Sun Dogs" or "Venus" you know what I mean. Until I saw one I admit I was in two minds I did think them real but was not sure but I'm actually really happy i did see one.

Anyway I'm off for a cup of coffee and a smoke and a pancake

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"Attack the idea, not the person" Posted by a Moderator.
Useful words around here indeed!!

A friend told me about how she looked out the window one night and saw a Demon. She almost wouldn't have believed it herself, but her father, whom went investigating after she screamed, also claims to have seen it along with her brother- they claim the chased it into the night and it flew away.

Owl?

It might have been trying to deliver a Hogwarts admission letter.

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Relight the Firefly!

"It is quite clear that Occam's razor does not sharpen in your pyramid." (Nicolas)

"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." (Paul Simon)

eh?? i tell you what. if my son thought he saw a demon i woulndt go after it!!

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"Attack the idea, not the person" Posted by a Moderator.
Useful words around here indeed!!

OK, so you do NOT accept that rational people can have seen an UFO. Apology withdrawn.

A demon is an identified object (even if incorrectly so). Do you understand what the word "unidentified" means? Your comparison is inappropriate to this discussion, rude, and silly.

The second time you have put words in my mouth- After having jumped on someone else for doing it to you.

Does it hurt to contradict yourself like that?

Rational people can see Unidentified Objects. I've seen tons of unidentified objects.
Rational people can take moments of irrationality as well- in leaping to conclusions.

No. She THOUGHT she saw Something. She then claimed it must have been a demon. There may have been something moving by the window- it may have been her own reflection. Who knows. But it's EXACTLY the SAME as people seeing something in the sky and declaring Alien Visitation. In either case, you might use the word Misidentified.
Exactly the same.
It was on target. Your feeble attempts at undermining it failed.

In the first few lines you are being somewhat reasonable.

In the second you (again) fail to see the difference between someone who sees something they can't identify (and is willing to entertain any reasonable explanation as a possibility) and someone who leaps to the conclusion that it is a demon (or some other equally unlikely explanation). You even ignore my own use of the phrase "incorrectly identified."

Which view do you hold?

Are there people who leap to silly conclusions? Yes.

Are there people who do not? Yes.

Is it reasonable to assume every person who has seen a UFO is a "woo woo?" No.

You seem to be jumping to the conclusion that I label anyone that sees a UFO as a woo woo.

I specifically centered my points on those people that see something and automatically assume it's Alien Visitors.
You could not have missed it.
I was quite clear.
Your attempts at obfuscation are either deliberate- or the result of you clearly reading into my post things I have not said at all. If deliberate- the tactic is a fallacy called "Red Herring."

I have already pointed out that I have seen a lot of UFO's.

This is an Astronomy forum.
Filled with people that are much more likely to look at the sky.
And yet, this forum is filled with many many people that have seen UFO's and think that they are NOT alien visitors.
It is filled with many people that have never seen anything out of the ordinary.
It is filled with a great many people who have seen unusual things or sights but were able to identify them later or recognize what they were at the time.

There are very few that believe they have seen alien visitors- and those few tend to be folks interested in Alien visitors - not astronomy. Which is why they registered.
So for a board filled with people that habitually look at the sky- it's remarkable that there is very little support for little green men here.