Yesterday I met a coleague of mine in the University of Sofia. We had a short conversation about spaceflight. Then he told me that we can't trust the agencies because we never walked on the Moon.

I started to explain to him that the Moon hoax theory is very silly and I told him that there's a lot of independent evidence about the Apollo mission. He told me then that the Van Allen belts are dangerous and the astronauts can't pass through them Can you imagine? He's a molecular biologist and he should have knowledge about radiation and its effects!

Finally I asked him: You are a molecular biologist, what about all these scientific articles in journals, peer review? Despite the fact he was unable to give me a brief answer, he told me that it's impossible and continued to claim that Apollo astronauts never made it to the moon.

I was very angry ... and guess what? I said to him: "You're a [...] conspiracy nut, a narrow thinker and you are unworthy to science"...

This made him mad. Hahahaa!

Hello Zvezdichko. Welcome to BAUT. Please take some time to read The Rules for Posting

Please note Rule 3 Language

It says in part

'Deliberately misspelled bad words, or replacing key letters with different characters or numbers will not be tolerated'

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Thanks for pointing me to the rules. Actually, I indeed used a swear word.

I understand your frustration, but do you think the name-calling was an effective argument? If your goal might be to nudge your colleague toward improved critical-thinking skills, this doesn't seem like a good tactic.

I can see why it made your colleague angry, and I don't understand a reason to laugh about that. Sorry.

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If your goal might be to nudge your colleague toward improved critical-thinking skills, this doesn't seem like a good tactic.

Actually, I tried to explain to him why we no longer fly to the Moon - for the same reason we don't fly at supersonic speed, the same reason we don't travel to Challenger Deep. I explained to him that the lunar rocks are absolutely unique and they can't be faked. I told him about zap holes, about people watching TLI burns. I told him that many people watched the launches and the craft went to somewhere and it was not LEO, because a lot of people would have seen it.

He refused to listen and continued claiming that we never went to the Moon. What do you expect to do? To say "Bravo!"? I was angry, too. And that's why I told him that he's a nut and a narrow thinker.

nut, bolt, rivet, it's all the same according to some.

But seriously, some people indeed have the "LALALA I can't hear you" reflex, though in most cases without the assiciated sounds and gestures.

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

And you think that helps?

There are stereotypical names I could apply to someone who did that, but labeling you with them would make me feel bad.

May I ask: how do you react when someone calls you a nut or similar? Maybe there's a cultural difference, or a personal style, here I don't understand. Does it ever make you more willing then to consider other things they are saying?

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Probably the same way he reacted.

Actually, the Moon Hoax is a different case. It has nothing to do with a cultural difference. Thousands of sensitive people working on the project Apollo, some of them risking their lives... for what? I feel saddened by the fact there are people who malign other's work. These brave men are being called cowards, liars, thieves. I don't know why such "cultural vandals" exist.

Yeah, those name-callers should be ashamed of themselves.

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Yes, of course.

Actually I forgot to say that this colleague is very aggressive sometimes. He's not a honest person. I have seen him in many different situations, including parties and off-school duties

Some don't get the chance to get all the way to that last word though .

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

Hehe

I don't know whether you follow the current missions in space. But I remember the moment when Phoenix landed. I was watching NASA TV and I was in tears. When I learned about the loss of signal, I was in tears, too. Probably I'll feel the same way when Spirit and Oppy die (I say die, not break down). I am only 21 y. old, so I never had the chance to watch Apollo missions live on TV or on the launch pad, but I'm sure there were many people following the progress of Armstrong, Colins and Aldrin. There are a lot of people alive today and may be they are saddened by the conspiracy theorists. I say for myself - nobody, nobody can take away my love to Phoenix and Spirit. And nobody, nobody can take away the steps these astronaust made on the Moon.

well, with a sturdy broom it should be possible...

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

Ya know what, I am seconding this.

Spirit and Opportunity, it will be sad when they finally die, they are like old friends.

But their deaths may give rise to the inspiration for the next missions (I hope), kind of like a "Phoenix" from the ashes, perhaps.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

Abaddon: Unfortunately the next mission to Mars will be delayed two years However, Phobos-Grunt will fly in 2009 and (if Russians have luck this time, because when it comes to Martian missions they don't have any) we may have successfull MetNet landing on Mars plus a landing on Phobos.

And, don't forget that LRO will fly next year! We hope that this mission will put the Moon Hoax theory to an end.

Unfortunately, I doubt that anything will be enough to put it to an end. It seems no amount of evidence is enough to convince the people who don't want to hear it.

I understand your frustration at your colleague, but in all honesty there is no point getting worked up about it. There are many of us the world over who recognise the true spirit and courage of those involved in the Apollo missions, and it's not worth getting angry about the minority who refuse to accept it

Are they a minority? I noticed the Gallup Poll on the main website, but a long time has passed since them (2001, Fox TV show). An old friend of mine (who is a creationist) claims that the whole world says that Apollo missions were faked. I know this is not true, but I'd like to see a recent poll.

It is a minority. A loud minority though.

But anyway, statistics can be used to prove anything. 43% of adult Americans know that.

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

Well, I certainly hope so

It's difficult to say, as any survey is bound to be biased in one direction or the other. But either way, it's not worth getting angry about. Try talking sense to people, by all means, but if they refuse to listen then don't let it get to you - it won't do any good, and you'll only end up stressing yourself out.

If the proportion of HB's is significant, you can at least take comfort from the fact that most of them probably just haven't heard both sides of the story, as opposed to stubbornly ignoring the evidence. Most people will be perfectly willing to listen to reason if you just give them a rational explanation, in my experience anyway. It doesn't work for everyone, but it's always worth a try...

If your collegue is a molecular biologist then he might be aware of all the science and evidence denial done by creationists, and you might be able to draw a parallel to the moonlanding denialists. Then again, if your friend is a creationist, all hope may be lost

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin
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Yeah, creationism is one example. I hope this would count as an exception to the rules, because I already have one warning today.
There's an article here: http://www.studentoftheword.com/ConfusinFacts.html
It's about creationism, but we have the same analogy:

Yes! Most of us refuse to change even if we give them proof. However, a full-blown crisis is something rare when it comes to space exploration. Most people even don't care about spaceflight except there's something veeeeeeery special.

Name calling and then laughing about it is completely immature. Sure, your colleague may be misguided, but shame on you for treating him that way. Maybe the problem lies within you attitude towards him and the way you probably come down on him for believing such theories. If someone started lecturing me and being a complete jerk about something, I would probably turn off to them as well.

I read somewhere that the best way to change someones mind about something is NOT through lecturing and condescending remarks, but through humor and irony.

And for what it is worth, I used to be a big time conspiracy theorist not more than 2 years ago. So peoples minds can and do change, just not always when YOU want them to.

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"In the end the aggressors always destroy themselves, making way for others who know how to cooperate and get along. Life is much less a competitive struggle for survival than a triumph of cooperation and creativity."- Fritjof Capra

www.gonzoscience.com

toothdust: will you share with us how you changed?

It's not Zvezdichko's fault that his colleague is a willfully ignorant idiot.

He did not make him that way. He tried to talk sense to him and slammed into a wall of ignorance for his efforts.

So he did the next best thing.

He gave him a dose of reality right in the face. And sometimes- people just simply need that. And if he didn't- maybe Zvezdichko did.


I would say that Zvezdichko acted most acceptably. After-all, he didn't slug the guy in the face. Which is usually what I'M Tempted to do when dealing with one face to face.

So umm...

Where is the humor in yours?

Notice that I didn't ask where the irony is. THAT I saw.

For starters, this forum That coupled with growing up, seeing the world for what it is, and common sense really.

I think the best way realize how folly an idea is is to have to explain it out loud to someone who asks who, what, where, why, when, how, etc. When you realize how little you really can answer definitively about something, the more silly it sounds coming out of your own mouth.

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"In the end the aggressors always destroy themselves, making way for others who know how to cooperate and get along. Life is much less a competitive struggle for survival than a triumph of cooperation and creativity."- Fritjof Capra

www.gonzoscience.com

I will second that I've watched you doing a lot of developing on the board.
You're moving along well and I, for one, have high hopes.

toothdust: It looks like you are an exception. You were opened to other opinions, other point of views.

My colleague refused to listen. Oh, I forgot - I told him that I know a website dedicated to moon hoax debunking - clavius.org . He laughed at it without reading.

As for the humour - we spoke in Bulgarian during the conversation, but I told him: "You're a nut" in English

There is no humor in someone being a condescending jerk, no matter how right they may be.

Also, Nev, how do you know he acted "most acceptably"? Were you there? Do you personally know Zvez? And "most acceptably" is your opinion, and as we all know you are a confrontational, overreacting person. So of course you think his approach "acceptable", considering your motto is punch first, ask questions later.

Sure the guy may ignorant about how enormously the Moon Hoax has been debunked, but ignorance doesn't = willful ignorance. For all you know the guy could have never been exposed to a solid debate about why the Moon Hoax is bull.

So instead of approaching him with respect and tolerance, Zvez calls him a [...] conspiracy nut! Tell me how that is in any way going to change the guys mind. It wont.

Zvez, tell your friend to sign on here and try and run his theory by us. Guarantee he will change his mind when presented with NON-confrontational attitudes and evidence.

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"In the end the aggressors always destroy themselves, making way for others who know how to cooperate and get along. Life is much less a competitive struggle for survival than a triumph of cooperation and creativity."- Fritjof Capra

www.gonzoscience.com

I disagree. Everyone has the potential to change, it just takes more for some than others.

On a side note, I think that the hardest part (for me anyways, but probably applies to others) about changing my mind about conspiracy theories was having to explain to people WHY I changed my mind, especially friends to whom I had previously spent many, many, many hours theorizing with. They saw it as a betrayal. Admitting to myself that I was wrong was easy once the light switched on in my head. Explaining to friends was much more difficult, and may explain why some people are reluctant to change their minds.

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"In the end the aggressors always destroy themselves, making way for others who know how to cooperate and get along. Life is much less a competitive struggle for survival than a triumph of cooperation and creativity."- Fritjof Capra

www.gonzoscience.com