Zvezdichko's UFO thread...

[Zvezdichko]

Hello,

I decided to open my own thread about UFO. I personally don't believe that UFOs (unidentified flying objects) are alien spacecraft.

Please, take a look of this link (if you speak Russian):

http://www.roscosmos.ru/NewsDoSele.asp?NEWSID=4941

Looks like Vladimir Kovalenok witnessed a UFO. This publication states (if I translate correctly): "He and Viktor Savinuih witnessed an unidentified flying object. He still doesn't know what it was".

[Abaddon]

No I dont read russian.

But from your paraphrasing, he saw something and he didnt know what it was.
Therefore, it was an unidentified flying object....unidentified

How one makes the leap to alien probing from there is anyones guess.

[Nicolas]

Just a matter of flipping some words in your head:

"we don't know what it was"
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"it was nothing we know"
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\/
"it was a craft of unknown origin"
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\/
"it was an alien craft"

While each of these steps has its own faults, the first one is the largest one. As I already said years ago: if I'd catapult your grandmother over the roof but you didn't recognize the screaming thing in the sky as your grandmother, does that mean she's an alien?

[Abaddon]

Originally Posted by Nicolas

if I'd catapult your grandmother over the roof but you didn't recognize the screaming thing in the sky as your grandmother, does that mean she's an alien?

Well so long as it is an "in-law", your ideas intrigue me.

Do you have a brochure?

Where is LotusExcelle with the marshmallows?

[Nicolas]

I have a brochure. No printed prices though. Partially because the extent of the endeavour depends on the mass of the subject in question, partially because if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it.

[Zvezdichko]

Actually most CTs ignore this first step and skip it:

"we don't know what it was"
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\/
"it was nothing we know"
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When they skip it, we have:

"it was nothing we know"
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\/
"it was a craft of unknown origin"

Here they say it's either related to a secret space program (the so called parallel space program), or they claim it's an alien space program

[Nicolas]

I've always wondered how this "parallel space program" ever got around to launching stuff. Launches as we've known them the last 50 years, tend to make quite a show of sound&vision; they tend not to remain unseen too often. Even with 60's spy technology, the Russians couldn't keep N1 launches secret.

[Zvezdichko]

A friend of mine (the same one who told me that the ISS is actually a UFO - see the other thread) told me that these things don't get around to launching stuff - they use secret antigravity technology, they are very calm. He even claims that there are secret bases on the Moon.

[Nicolas]

How funny how so many people know all about secret stuff.

[Zvezdichko]

Actually they use some terms I'm not familiar with - Masoni | Illuminati or something like that and the whole world is something like a big circus where all governments are clowns and secret technology is present.

By the way the most funny thing is that their proof is Youtube clips or bad quality images

[Nicolas]

Masoni/Illuminati/the powers that be/ They/Them all refer to a secret world-leading organisation, above all official governments, and in charge of all official governments. Don't ask for any evidence of this worldwide leader organisation thing though.

[Zvezdichko]

I won't. Because I think there's no evidence at all.

[Nowhere Man]

Isn't it amazing how thorough They are about cleaning up after Themselves? Why, the very lack of evidence shows just how powerful They are!

Oh:

Fred

[LaurelHS]

"A good conspiracy is unprovable. I mean, if you can prove it, that means they screwed up somewhere along the line." Mel Gibson in Conspiracy Theory.

[Zvezdichko]

Nicolas: My friend says to you that everybody knows about Area 51 and a person named Robert Lazarus. Looks like the parallel space program is being launched from there.

[01101001]

Originally Posted by Zvezdichko

Robert Lazarus

Probably Bob Lazar. See topics Bob Lazar....hes a fake right???, Bob Lazar and his UFOmania, and several others.

[Zvezdichko]

Looks like you're right. His name really is Bob Lazar. I speak to this friend of mine in Bulgarian, so it's hard for me to find out what he's actually talking about, even if this has been discussed before.

[Laguna]

Originally Posted by Zvezdichko

Nicolas: My friend says to you that everybody knows about Area 51 and a person named Robert Lazarus. Looks like the parallel space program is being launched from there.

As we have high resolution pictures of that area,
where exactly is the required infastructure?

[Sigma_Orionis]

Hidden under a large SEP Field of course

[slang]

Originally Posted by Sigma_Orionis

Hidden under a large SEP Field of course

That's not my problem!

[Laguna]

Originally Posted by Sigma_Orionis

Hidden under a large SEP Field of course

So they painted it in pink!

[Sigma_Orionis]

Originally Posted by slang

That's not my problem!

That's why you can't see it

Originally Posted by Laguna2

So they painted it in pink!

Yup, the latest EORO SEP fields are custom made and in designer colors

Zvezdichko, regarding Bob Lazar and his allegations, you might find this thread interesting, IMHO Lazar's allegations are a lot less than.............................................. ..........believable.

[Laguna]

Originally Posted by Sigma_Orionis

That's why you can't see it


Yup, the latest EORO SEP fields are custom made and in designer colors

In this case I would like to order mine in pastel green...

[Zvezdichko]

Hm, thanks for the links, I will give them to my friend, but I'm personally not interested.

I do wonder why so many people claim that NASA is a top secret agency. Compared to Chinese space administration and even ESA, NASA is a very open agency.

[JayUtah]

UFO proponents, Moon hoax believers, and similar pseudoscientists seem to operate principally from a socio-political agenda that vilifies any designated authority. That is, they seem to define their core beliefs in terms of having been oppressed and deceived by people who wield political and/or social power. NASA is the face of that "oppression" for the hoax believers. The goal of the hoax theory is to prove that NASA is evil. That is, the real line of reasoning is: "NASA faked the Moon landings, therefore NASA (as a symbol of the U.S. or its government) is evil and deceptive and we are right to hate them." With that central syllogism in place it's not hard to adopt the circular argument that because NASA is evil and deceptive they "naturally" must have figured out the means to hoax the Apollo missions.

The argument in which that line of reasoning is most evident states that the Cold War environment created a need for national prestige, or for a distraction from an unpopular war. The U.S. wanted to beat the Soviets to the Moon and to be seen as a great world power. But the conspiracists don't seem to consider that those goals would be served equally if not better by real missions. That is, you can tell from this argument that the hoax theory is a preconception that colors the interpretation of the rest of the claims.

[Fazor]

Perhaps they should take a moment to consider the fact that space exploration was a branch of science that was bolstered by the Cold War; not created by it.

The argument in which that line of reasoning is most evident states that the Cold War environment created a need for national prestige, or for a distraction from an unpopular war. The U.S. wanted to beat the Soviets to the Moon and to be seen as a great world power.

I believe both of those statements played a major part in the space program. But that doesn't mean it was an evil distract-o-ploy. In fact, finding something that could pull a worried and world-weary nation together was a noble goal. And the advancement of science and exploration is always a noble goal.

But, it's also obvious that many CT's don't create a picture of the world around them by painting the bowl of fruit they see in front of them; instead they first paint the picture, then go arrange the fruit to look like what they've created.

[Christopher Ferro]

Many of the hoax believers I have know say they don't deny that real missions would indeed have shown that prestige. They claim the real missions were not possible, hence the hoax.

But I agree with the bulk of Jay's assessment, from my personal experience.

CJSF

[PetersCreek]

Originally Posted by JayUtah

UFO proponents, Moon hoax believers, and similar pseudoscientists seem to operate principally from a socio-political agenda that vilifies any designated authority.

Agreed...and I think this also feeds into another motivation. In my unsubstantiated, non-psychiatrist-type lay opinion, I think many/some of these hoax proponents are feeding a need for self-empowerment. That is, believing, advocating, and spreading the word about the hoax theory makes them feel special, in-the-know, smarter than the average "sheeple". By knowing the "real truth", they negate the power the evil gubmint has over them and attain power of their own that they'll use to bring it down.

[Fazor]

I certianly wouldn't disagree Peters. Personally I think there's a lot of psych factors, but the one you mention is probably the biggest in my book. For the record, my opinion is also of the "unsubstantiated, non-psychiatrist-type lay opinion" variety.

...in fact, since I'm not an expert in anything, I should probably just put that disclaimer in my sig since it pretty much always applies... :P

[Halcyon Dayz]

I don't quite understand why some people see NASA as an authority anyway.

It is just an agency doing the job the government has tasked it with.
The only authority it has is over its own people.
The FDA, for example, has a lot more power.
It actually enforces law and can tell people what to do.