Apollo slow-scan TV tapes and panorama photographs - Page 2

Sam5 · #31 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 12:47 AM

I would think that a main purpose of sending slow-scan video from Apollo 11 was just in case the spacecraft and astronaughts didn't make it back to earth (along with the high quality film moves and film stills), NASA would have some moderate quality record of the flight, by means of the slow-scan transmitted images.

But once the 16 mm films and 2-1/4 stills made it back, that would lower the long-term value of having the slow-scan video.

Sam5 · #32 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicdave

Just look above - I can see a marked difference.

What does slow-scan tv have to do with ufos and aliens?

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/apolloastrosstv.gif

sts60 · #33 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captain swoop

what is the conspiracy here? So the tapes were lost, if you had them what would they show?

I, too, would like to hear exactly what the conspiracy, if any is indeed alleged, is supposed to be. A vast conspiracy to suppress widespread distribution of somewhat higher quality video imagery of part of the Apollo 11 mission?

Oh, and just to be clear, cosmicdave, with which of the following statements do you agree?

1. Apollo astronauts never landed on the Moon.

2. Apollo astronauts landed on the Moon, but there was a conspiracy to cover up something they found on the Moon.
2a. Aliens?

cosmicdave · #34 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sts60

I, too, would like to hear exactly what the conspiracy, if any is indeed alleged, is supposed to be. A vast conspiracy to suppress widespread distribution of somewhat higher quality video imagery of part of the Apollo 11 mission?

Oh, and just to be clear, cosmicdave, with which of the following statements do you agree?

1. Apollo astronauts never landed on the Moon.

2. Apollo astronauts landed on the Moon, but there was a conspiracy to cover up something they found on the Moon.
2a. Aliens?

My beliefs do not fall into any of the above - if you want the answer then you can read the brand new Apollo page that is going up on my website real soon - its 4 times bigger than the last one with lots more information.

cosmicdave · #35 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam5

What does slow-scan tv have to do with ufos and aliens?

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/apolloastrosstv.gif

Erm, look at the link at the bottom of my signature... any clearer?

I hosted the pictures on my website. Doh!

cosmicdave · #36 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 03:51 AM

So, now that I have posted the comparisons between the SSTV and TV pictures, is Jay Utah or anyone else going to comment on them? After all, you asked why I was making a fuss and that the tapes in the public domain are almost the same quality as the SSTV pictures.

Judging by the picture comparisons I posted, you are wrong. How convenient that those accusers suddenly butted out of the argument!

NickW · #37 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 03:55 AM

You know, people might have other things to do. I would go accosting them for it.

Sam5 · #38 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicdave

Erm, look at the link at the bottom of my signature... any clearer?

I hosted the pictures on my website. Doh!

I'm trying to find out what the topic of this thread is.

In the past year or so, there has been a trend on this board to lock older threads, then someone takes an isolated post from an older thread and uses it to start a new thread. So some of us who didn't read the older thread don't know what the debate in this newer thread is all about about.

Are there some missing NASA slow-scan TV tapes? Are there any copies of them available?

What would we gain if we found the originals? What is in the originals that the government would want to hide?

sts60 · #39 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 04:20 AM

My beliefs do not fall into any of the above

No. You either believe Apollo astronauts landed on the Moon or not. Which is it?

- if you want the answer then you can read the brand new Apollo page that is going up on my website real soon - its 4 times bigger than the last one with lots more information.

Again, no. I'm not interested in your new song-and-dance routine. Your current site is chock-full of errors and misrepresentations, which have been repeatedly pointed out to you. But they're still there.

PetersCreek · #40 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicdave

...if you want the answer then you can read the brand new Apollo page that is going up on my website real soon...

You know full well it doesn't work that way here. When we want answers to our direct questions, you can provide them here, in this forum, according to the rules of this forum...which you are once again warned to follow.

Obviousman · #41 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 06:27 AM

I am reasonable sure that the machine which was able to read the tapes was due to be retired, but because of the interest shown in the SSTV images it was decommisioned and mothballed for now. When the tapes are found, they'll be able to be played back on it.

I don't have the source for this right now, and I am just on my way out to farewell a workmate, so I won't be able to get a confirmation / source for at least 24 hours.

Dwight · #42 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicdave

So putting your post into context, you believe that the original Apollo tapes are no more worthy of being kept than episodes of Dr Who?

The big difference between your examples and the original magnetic tapes is that the ones available today were firstly scan converted, and then filmed off a small TV set. They were then sent by either landline, satellite or microwave relays to Houston, before being released to the TV companies. The degredation that occured by using that process produced far inferior quality footage than the original SSTV ones.

The TV pictures are a lot darker, which was because the contrast was turned down too low when the camera was placed in front of the TV that was showing the pictures from the Moon. So, the supposed 'similar quality' tapes that you say are available are anything but.

As regards to an investigator being allowed to see those original tapes, I highly doubt it.

Putting my post into context: Tapes which many people consider the highest importance go missing/get re-used/get misplaced _all the time_.

The HUGE difference you seem to have missed between Dr Who and Apollo 11 material is that the Dr Who material really is completely lost in many cases. That means there is no inch of footage (be it filmed off a TV screen, an old NTSC Betamax or whathaveyou) that exists anymore. It truly is lost. The Apollo 11 transmissions exist as copies in their entirity.

I'm glad you posted the two pictures for comparison. If the Apollo 11 tapes are truly "missing" as you claim, where did the frame grabs (not the polaroids) come from? We see those pictures here on this board because someone grabbed the images from the video record WHICH STILL EXISTS.

Lastly why did you not bother to properly read my post? I clearly stated the TCN-9 Sydney footage (and the ABC footage) which were taken directly from HSK. That tape looks very similar to the SSTV photos. It's not my problem that you haven't researched the issue properly. Those tapes also still exist. That means they aren't missing.

I cannot speak for NASA's apparent sloppy record keeping. I can't tell you why the Goldstone feed is used for the ladder descent. I hazard to guess it was easier to use the GDS footage for archiving than to pickup a tape halfway across the world. But I can tell you that clearer footage does exist (ie is not missing) of the moonwalk. I can also tell you that the footage exists from the point Buzz activate the TV circuit breaker.

Can you clarify for us all here how you think Apollo 11 is missing any footage of the moonwalk?

Dwight · #43 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicdave

So, now that I have posted the comparisons between the SSTV and TV pictures, is Jay Utah or anyone else going to comment on them? After all, you asked why I was making a fuss and that the tapes in the public domain are almost the same quality as the SSTV pictures.

Judging by the picture comparisons I posted, you are wrong. How convenient that those accusers suddenly butted out of the argument!

That's fantastic! Now kindly post the Australian TV frame grabs that I was talking about and specifically mentioned by name (TCN-9 or the ABC). I never posted anything about public domain. If you believe I have please guide me to where I did.

BTW Some of us do have to sleep you know.

captain swoop · #44 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 10:23 AM

Quote:

what is the conspiracy here? So the tapes were lost, if you had them what would they show?

Just look above - I can see a marked difference.

Yes, but what do you think they would show that other footage doesn't?

What is missing?

What are you expecting to see?

What will it prove?

Do you doubt any of the Apollo record?

Swift · #45 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam5

It would be nice to have a link to the original thread so we who are not familiar with it can figure out what this thread is about. Especially those of us who saw the landing on live TV and also those of us who have used video cameras of various kinds.

This is the original thread, raburgeson's on Mars pictures. Right around this post by cosmicdave that thread started to get derailed with a discussion about the Apollo tapes and I requested that that discussion move elsewhere.

sts60 · #46 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 02:38 PM

Speaking of derailing, I'm only looking for a simple answer to a simple question:

Does cosmicdave believe the Apollo astronauts landed on the Moon? Yes or no.

After that, my on-topic question is what exact conspiracy is alleged, if any, regarding the Apollo 11 video?

How convenient that those accusers suddenly butted out of the argument!

Heh. It was six hours after Jay and Dwight had last posted when Dave said this. It's been ten hours since I asked my question above. By his own criterion, cosmicdave has butted out of the argument!

Just kidding, Dave. This isn't a chat room, and everyone has other things to do... I hope.

Dwight · #47 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 03:28 PM

Any comments dave on the source of this:

its a bit soft as its ripped from a lo-res highly compressed file I got via email.
TCN-9 Video as recorded 21.7.1969 Australian East Coast Time (Sydney). Sourced from kinescope 16mm transferred to 2". This file is sourced from a miniDV copy of a digital betacam dub from the 2" master tape. It was then converted to MP4 and sent via email.

Extracelestial · #48 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicdave

The obvious question is if this is the best quality film taken from Apollo 11, why didn't NASA make sure that it was properly labeled and stored so that it could be easily found? Whats the significance of this film? Its the clearest footage taken!

Its a bit like making a Hollywood film and losing the original master copy. Any other 'copies' are inferior to the original. I thought that as your a 'photographic expert', you would realise that?

Hi CosmicDave,

lack of interest comes to my mind. Apart from Moon-Hoax believers not very many other folks are interested in 40 year old footage. However, do you suspect that there has been something worth hiding on these specific reels and, if so, what was it?

Extracelestial

sohh_fly · #49 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 04:40 PM

cosmicdave ,I suspect it's your website that give's you your go hard attitude.
without it, would you defend your position on (ET and UFO) these subject's.
your vested interest might be the weakness of your position?

cosmicdave · #50 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam5

I'm trying to find out what the topic of this thread is.

In the past year or so, there has been a trend on this board to lock older threads, then someone takes an isolated post from an older thread and uses it to start a new thread. So some of us who didn't read the older thread don't know what the debate in this newer thread is all about about.

Are there some missing NASA slow-scan TV tapes? Are there any copies of them available?

What would we gain if we found the originals? What is in the originals that the government would want to hide?

OK - the brief history behind this thread is that 698 out of 700 boxes containing SSTV and Telemetry tapes have gone missing from the US National Archives. By looking at the examples I posted of the quality between the SSTV pictures and those shown on the TV should easily illustrate the reason why the original SSTV tapes should be found.

cosmicdave · #51 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sts60

My beliefs do not fall into any of the above

No. You either believe Apollo astronauts landed on the Moon or not. Which is it?

- if you want the answer then you can read the brand new Apollo page that is going up on my website real soon - its 4 times bigger than the last one with lots more information.

Again, no. I'm not interested in your new song-and-dance routine. Your current site is chock-full of errors and misrepresentations, which have been repeatedly pointed out to you. But they're still there.

Yes, I agree and that is why I am doing an update which will be 4 times the information and which will explain many of my theories behind an Apollo Hoax. The items that are currently on the page which have been proven wrong will be removed.

In fact, I am even going to include a section that deals with popular AH beliefs that are wrong and show why.

PetersCreek · #52 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 05:33 PM

Be that as it may, you still need to answer the questions pending in the this thread...in this thread.

cosmicdave · #53 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight

Putting my post into context: Tapes which many people consider the highest importance go missing/get re-used/get misplaced _all the time_.

The HUGE difference you seem to have missed between Dr Who and Apollo 11 material is that the Dr Who material really is completely lost in many cases. That means there is no inch of footage (be it filmed off a TV screen, an old NTSC Betamax or whathaveyou) that exists anymore. It truly is lost. The Apollo 11 transmissions exist as copies in their entirity.

I'm glad you posted the two pictures for comparison. If the Apollo 11 tapes are truly "missing" as you claim, where did the frame grabs (not the polaroids) come from? We see those pictures here on this board because someone grabbed the images from the video record WHICH STILL EXISTS.

Lastly why did you not bother to properly read my post? I clearly stated the TCN-9 Sydney footage (and the ABC footage) which were taken directly from HSK. That tape looks very similar to the SSTV photos. It's not my problem that you haven't researched the issue properly. Those tapes also still exist. That means they aren't missing.

I cannot speak for NASA's apparent sloppy record keeping. I can't tell you why the Goldstone feed is used for the ladder descent. I hazard to guess it was easier to use the GDS footage for archiving than to pickup a tape halfway across the world. But I can tell you that clearer footage does exist (ie is not missing) of the moonwalk. I can also tell you that the footage exists from the point Buzz activate the TV circuit breaker.

Can you clarify for us all here how you think Apollo 11 is missing any footage of the moonwalk?

Since when has a Dr Who episode been as important as what is claimed to be 'Man's greatest acheivement'?

The polaroid pictures of the SSTV pictures were taken as they were broadcast to Parkes. The TV footage that you refer to would have had to be converted from the SSTV signal as normal TV screens were of a different signal/resolution.

Dont worry, I have done my homework. I can even tell you why Goldstone were used for the laddder descent. 3 stations were tracking the Apollo landing. During the mission the signal differed between each station and after about 8 hours it was decided that Parkes had the best signal.

You dont have to insult me by guessing what I have researched, because right there I have just answered the questions that you know nothing about!

I am not saying that any footage is missing - I am saying that the best version of the mission is missing. Even my dog could see that by the picture comparisons I posted.

cosmicdave · #54 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight

That's fantastic! Now kindly post the Australian TV frame grabs that I was talking about and specifically mentioned by name (TCN-9 or the ABC). I never posted anything about public domain. If you believe I have please guide me to where I did.

BTW Some of us do have to sleep you know.

As I am constantly reminded in this forum - claims must be backed up with evidence. So, considering that you are the person claiming that the Australian TV frame grabs are as good quality as the SSTV pictures, please be my guest and post your evidence.

PetersCreek · #55 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 05:44 PM

cosmicdave,

You have questions and moderator warnings pending in this thread. Please address them now or risk another suspension.

cosmicdave · #56 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sts60

Speaking of derailing, I'm only looking for a simple answer to a simple question:

Does cosmicdave believe the Apollo astronauts landed on the Moon? Yes or no.

After that, my on-topic question is what exact conspiracy is alleged, if any, regarding the Apollo 11 video?

How convenient that those accusers suddenly butted out of the argument!

Heh. It was six hours after Jay and Dwight had last posted when Dave said this. It's been ten hours since I asked my question above. By his own criterion, cosmicdave has butted out of the argument!

Just kidding, Dave. This isn't a chat room, and everyone has other things to do... I hope.

Actually, I thought Jay was a bot that stayed on this forum to answer questions...

Joking aside, I do believe that they went to the Moon. I dont believe the footage is genuine though. My belief is that NASA 'conveniently' lost the tapes and closed down the only source that could play those tapes for a reason.

The TV tapes are of inferior quality. As I posted earlier, it is now known that the contrast on the TV was turned down too low - hence the dark pictures.

Its funny though how excuses are made for the long time regular members on this board. My friend Andy Lloyd was banned for taking 24 hours to respond to a post. How times have changed!

cosmicdave · #57 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight

Any comments dave on the source of this:

its a bit soft as its ripped from a lo-res highly compressed file I got via email.

You brought the picture to the debate, so please tell me about your evidence. This isnt a guessing game.

cosmicdave · #58 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sohh_fly

cosmicdave ,I suspect it's your website that give's you your go hard attitude.
without it, would you defend your position on (ET and UFO) these subject's.
your vested interest might be the weakness of your position?

Yes I would. I had the same stance long before even starting the website. If you meant getting paid by using the words 'vested interest', perhaps you should try it yourself. I have spent more money on the site than made. Making money is the not reason for having my website on the web. But thats the problem in many cases. If anybody has a website, video or book, skeptics will always fall back on the old notion that its all just one big moneyspinning business.

cosmicdave · #59 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 06:13 PM

Mr Moderator, how am I dodging questions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayUtah

The paper claims the original tape will contain additional resolution over copies in standardized format. Please elaborate on this claim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayUtah

The paper claims signal degradation occurred as the result of transmitting the scan-converted signal over the enhanced MSFN to Houston. Please provide examples of such degradation. Also please explain why this would affect tapes made by television stations in Australia, which used the Honeysuckle Creek feed.

By posting the picture comparisons on the last page proves my point regarding the difference in picture quality. Those are my examples of signal degradation.

I have just answered the questions regarding landing man on the moon. I know it may be hard to believe, but I am not an alien with 5 hands. It takes time to answer so many questions from so many different people.

cosmicdave · #60 (**permalink**) 18-February-2009, 06:14 PM

Its all quiet on the sceptic front...

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