sts 60 said:JayUtah said:And that also describes the (Australian) government agency I work for. Managers try to poach each others' staff; the central office tries to set rules for everyone to work by, while regional offices try to do things their own way; one branch which is autonomous enough that they've just about set up their own copy of the agency (their own HR, recruitment and OHS sections, for example); and chaotic relationships with other state, federal and overseas agencies...

Piknar said:I meant that scientists are the people who determine scientific facts, not governments. This was in response to your statement "...the govt view it is still not proven..." which seemed to me to suggest that it was the US government which decided the Moon has an atmosphere.

Reminds me of the 1897 bill passed unanimously in the Indiana House of Reps to redefine Pi. Hard, cold reality took a stand there as well...

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"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day." - Douglas Adams

"Certainly, in the topsy-turvy world of heavy rock, having a good solid piece of wood in your hand is often useful." - Ian Faith

In the proper interests of science, check this for the actual facts, there.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...ng-pi-equals-3

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Sorry, but I'm not sure what your correction is here. I stated an 1897 bill, Indiana House of Reps unanimous acceptance and redefining pi. Your link includes the following statements:

• In 1897 Representative T.I. Record of Posen county introduced House Bill #246 in the Indiana House of Representatives.
• The latter committee gave the bill a "pass" recommendation and sent it on to the full House, which approved it unanimously, 67 to 0.
• Goodwin and Record apparently couldn't handle the fact that pi was not a rational number. "Since the rule in present use [presumably pi equals 3.14159...] fails to work ..., it should be discarded as wholly wanting and misleading in the practical applications," the bill declared. Instead, mathematically inclined Hoosiers could take their pick among the following formulae...

Which of the statements in my previous post was impugning the 'proper interests of science' specifically?

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"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day." - Douglas Adams

"Certainly, in the topsy-turvy world of heavy rock, having a good solid piece of wood in your hand is often useful." - Ian Faith

Which nuclear payload in Apollo 13 are you talking about?

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

It was never actually state law, which I know you didn't state, but I do think it's important to note. Also, I'm curious (Cecil doesn't say) how many members there were of the House of Representatives at the time--67-0 may or may not mean that they were all there! (No, I don't expect you to know, either; if I'm not going to take the time to look it up, why should I expect anyone else to? Just curiousity.)

Also, to be fair, I missed the part in Cecil's article that pointed out that it did pass the House. That was my mistake. However, I wouldn't say it was as simple as "cold, hard reality" which kept it from being law--I think the amount of ridicule they'd receive from others may have had something to do with it as well, which is an aspect of reality, to be sure, but something a little less direct than "but it's totally wrong, you see."

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

SNAP-27, a RTG used on Apollos 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17 to provide power for the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiment Packages (ALSEP) carried by the LM. It contained plutonium-238.

A11's EASEP (which was solar powered) also carried a plutonium heater unit.

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"Slapping a guy on the head is just as funny now as it was eighty years ago."

Thanks for clearing that up.

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

The nuclear generator on Apollo 13 got more attention because, of course, it ended up coming back to Earth rather than being left on the Moon. Mission directors were none too happy when some scientifically illiterate and overcautious politics necessitated them diverting time from their efforts to keep the crew alive to design a descent trajectory for the LM that would put the SNAP-27 generator in the deepest part of the pacific in order to avoid the risk of showering somewhere with plutonium: a risk that had already been mitigated right in the early design stages. The SNAP-27 generator was already designed with the possibility of unexpected re-entry or destruction of the launch vehicle in mind, so was highly unlikely to release plutonium anyway.

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"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.

but, but, but....it is nukeyouliar! It will kill us all!

Good thing they got the crew back despite people screaming beyond their knowledge. Of course you need to take the nuclear things on board into account, but had they (the screamers) known the design, that would have taken half a minute.

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

Had they applied a modicum of sense they'd have figured it out, but as usual the nuclear boogeyman reared his head. Did they really think NASA was going to sit a nuclear system on top of 6 million pounds of explosive rocket fuel without designing it to withstand a lot?

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"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.

...that would put the SNAP-27 generator in the deepest part of the pacific in order to avoid the risk of showering somewhere with plutonium...

The casks are of graphite composite (similar to the leading edge of the space shuttle wings) and are meant to withstand explosions and re-entry. The individual fuel elements are clad in rhodium or vanadium or some other similar metal and measure no more than a few grams each. In the absolute worst case where the cask ruptures and the cladding burns away, the safest way to render the plutonium harmless is to dilute it with several billion liters of sea water.

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"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

The SNAP-27 fuel was made up of plutonium oxide microspheres, divided into two inner capsules each with a little under one and a half kilograms of PuO2. The inner capsules resided in an outer capsule. Both inner and outer clads were made of Haynes 25 superalloy. (Do I get a T-shirt after all these years?) PuO2 is pretty insoluble in water.

Some earlier generators used plutonium metal and were designed to burn up on reentry, dispersing the fuel harmlessly. Precisely this happened with Transit 5-B-N3 in 1964. Although the generator did exactly what it was supposed to do, and the material dispersed as predicted, later heat sources and fuel forms were designed for intact retrieval, even from extraorbital trajectories.

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"Slapping a guy on the head is just as funny now as it was eighty years ago."

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I'm surprised how quickly the topic seems to change here. I was reading about the so-called "Iron-Angel statue" on the first page of this thread, and jumped here to the last page, to find the discussion is now about the Apollo mission power sources.

Is it too late for my two-pesos worth input to the original story-line of this thread?

200,000 years ago, there WERE advanced civilizations on Earth = Lemuria and Atlantis were the two major major ones. These were destroyed in warfare between the two. This destruction was followed by (or resulted in) a sudden Pole shift which sent a huge tsunami rolling over the lands at ~1,000 MPH. The entire oceans rolling over the lands finished any remaining traces of civilizations. One notable exception to this destruction, is the massive Stonework "temple" structures recently found underwater to the South of Japan.

Then the Ice Age set in. Those surviving Human Beings, mostly in the higher mountains around the Earth, spent the next several thousand years in Basic Survival mode. Tools and weapons were fashioned from whatever was available = stones, flint, &c.

As to the SO-CALLED Iron Angel itself = TOTAL NONSENSE. For one thing, "angels" do NOT have wings. They are Spiritually advanced Human Beings, which may appear on Earth only for very specific missions. No Angel will EVER promote any religion or religious Dogma.

Religious content removed
For reference: Link to website removed
Peace

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i knew personally a radio amateur from dapto nsw that listened (and had tapes) of the a11 comms (he later went on to be a `moonbouncer' ie a ham radio enthusist that `bounced' signals off the moon to other ham radio operators

(come to think of it- I wonder what became of those tapes- i know they existed in the 70's when i heard them- but do they still exist in a back shed somewhere or did they get lost along with so many other things??- they were one of the reasons i got into amateur radio and cb in the first place)

any dapto guys out there that still know???

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No, I'm being ordinarily sarcastic. Don't make me get very sarcastic. You wouldn't like me when I'm very sarcastic. - JayUtah



Surely if you are going to start a conspiracy theory it is best to start with something that might have a grain of truth or reality in it. To start with the preposterous and go downhill from there is just stupid. steve(primus) (Avatar)

Well, somebody DID find Jesus in a Cheetoh (Chesus?).

http://www.myfoxwfld.com/myvoicedc/w...8551626a13.jpg

An angel in a moon rock is just as believable.

tbm

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Paddle faster!! I hear banjo music!!

J-Rod7, do you have any credible sources and searchable links for what you claim?

(sound of a worm can opening......)

tbm

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Paddle faster!! I hear banjo music!!

Oh good grief. Chesus though, lol, classic tbm!

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"Ignorance has caused more calamity than malignity" H.G. Wells

"Getting lost is part of exploring." Uniqua in "Backyardigans-Heart of the Jungle"

"Trying to wrap my head around creationist astronomy is like trying to ride a unicycle around a Moebius strip: it’s off-balance, physically impossible, full of one-sided arguments, and in the end you don’t go anywhere." Phil Plait

Looks to me like a donkey unicorn.

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If "entire oceans" wiped out all traces, how do you know any advanced civilizations ever existed? "Advanced civilizations" and massive stonework structures seems like an oxymoron to me.
Your first sentence is correct. The rest is fantasy.

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“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

There is, however, and NASA-employed Charles Morris. He took his position in 1984.

Edit: This was in reply to Van Rijn's post on the first page. (Now quoted below.) I should know better than to post after my bedtime.

Can somebody explain how this subject got dragged out to six pages? This is worth a (meta) topic all by itself.

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In your rush to call everyone "entrenched" or closed-minded or "limited" you fail to note that the "limit" here has a very natural boundary: that point at which the evidence stops. - JayUtah

Science fiction was never meant to be an educational tool. - Editor Amazing Tales

Um if the moon has an atmosphere then why does the sky always look black when you see photos of moonscapes?

Who are you asking?

None of the regulars here think the moon has an atmosphere.

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Nothing beautiful was ever made from gravel.

Actually, the moon does have an extremely thin atmosphere.

Though the Moon is surrounded by a vacuum higher than is usually created in laboratories on Earth, its atmosphere is extensive and of high scientific interest. During the two-week daytime period, atoms and molecules are ejected by a variety of processes from the lunar surface, ionized by the solar wind, and then driven by electromagnetic effects as a collisionless plasma. The position of the Moon in its orbit determines the behaviour of the atmosphere. For part of each month, when the Moon is on the sunward side of Earth, atmospheric gases collide with the undisturbed solar wind; in other parts of the orbit, they move into and out of the elongated tail of Earth’s magnetosphere, an enormous region of space where the planet’s magnetic field dominates the behaviour of electrically charged particles. In addition, the low temperatures on the Moon’s nightside and in permanently shaded polar craters provide cold traps for condensable gases.

Instruments placed on the lunar surface by Apollo astronauts measured various properties of the Moon’s atmosphere, but analysis of the data was difficult because the atmosphere’s extreme thinness made contamination from Apollo-originated gases a significant factor. The main gases naturally present are neon, hydrogen, helium, and argon. The argon is mostly radiogenic; i.e., it is released from lunar rocks by the decay of radioactive potassium. Lunar night temperatures are low enough for the argon to condense but not the neon, hydrogen, or helium, which originate in the solar wind and remain in the atmosphere as gases unless implanted in soil particles.

How low is the lunar atmospheric pressure? Really, really low.

The atmospheric pressure on the moon is far less than 1.10-11 torr or mbar.

Earth: 2.5x1019 mol/cm3 (STP, 1 atm)

Moon: ≈104 mol/cm3 day and ≈ 2x105 mol/cm3 night or approx. 10-14 of that found on Earth i.e. 10-14 torr.

I think the comment was made in an ironic fashion.

CJSF

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Two years ago moved from my town
I was looking up past the city lights
But the city lights got in my way

See the constellation ride across the sky
No cigar, no lady on his arm
Just a guy made of dots and lines

-from "See The Constellation"
by They Might Be Giants

Yes, I nearly put "an appreciable atmosphere" or somesuch.

Granted, but I was wondering who it was directed at.

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Nothing beautiful was ever made from gravel.